The Troubadour Podcast
"It is the honourable characteristic of Poetry that its materials are to be found in every subject which can interest the human mind." William Wordsworth The Troubadour Podcast invites you into a world where art is conversation and conversation is art. The conversations on this show will be with some living people and some dead writers of our past. I aim to make both equally entertaining and educational.In 1798 William Wordsworth and Samuel Coleridge published Lyrical Ballads, which Wordsworth called an experiment to discover how far the language of everyday conversation is adapted to the purpose of poetic pleasure. With this publication, he set in motion the formal movement called "Romanticism." 220 years later the experiment is continued on this podcast. This podcast seeks to reach those of us who wish to improve our inner world, increase our stores of happiness, and yet not succumb to the mystical or the subjective.Here, in this place of the imagination, you will find many conversation with those humans creating things that interest the human mind.
The Troubadour Podcast
Exploring the Romantic Spark: Poetry, Painting, and the Power of Unspoken Connections
Unlock the mysteries of love's first glow as we, Kirk and Luc, together with our spirited Facebook Group community, dissect the elusive 'romantic spark' through the prisms of poetry and painting. We kick off with a poignant poem and a captivating visual narrative, inviting you to feel the pulse quicken at the prospect of fresh love. Expect to traverse the landscapes of romantic comedies, iconic tales, and delve into the psyche behind one-sided infatuation versus the electrifying mutual connection that kindles true romance.
Have you ever felt the power of a silent gaze? Journey with us through the halls of the National Gallery of Art as we recount personal encounters with art that speaks volumes without uttering a word. Experience the stirring of deep emotions as we engage with a painting that captures the duality of longing and contentment, youth and wisdom, and the sheer magnetism of an adoring look. Our reflections will offer a window into how the unspoken can ignite a powerful sense of connection, whether it's in the context of budding romance or the multifaceted world of social dynamics.
Finally, let Shakespeare's words guide us as we unravel the potent sentiments captured in his timeless musings on love. Find solace in the thought that the spark of romance can reignite or burst into flame anew, regardless of the past. As we interpret complex metaphors within a challenging love poem, we'll explore the idea that in love, we find our true awakening, seeing ourselves mirrored in another's gaze. Join us to explore how art and poetry collectively become the mirror of our deepest feelings, identity, and the enduring artistry that encapsulates the very essence of the romantic spark.
I see an older woman and a younger woman looking at what I imagine is a man. Act enough fool on the street.
Speaker 2:Welcome everybody to Surprised by Art, where we explore the surprises inherent in great works of art. My name is Kirk and I'm going to choose a poem.
Speaker 3:My name is Luke and I'm going to choose a painting for you, kirk.
Speaker 2:And we're going to surprise each other and you with these works of art, and this is based on a topic that you all voted on over at Surprised by Art Facebook Group. So if you're interested in voting on this, go to the Surprised by Art Facebook Group and you get to participate in all the after show stuff. So check that out. But, luke, why don't you tell us what the topic that everybody chose was?
Speaker 3:Okay, so the topic is a romantic spark. Is that right? Romantic spark? Well, that's not like an explosion.
Speaker 2:Well spark leads to an explosion.
Speaker 3:I think that's a good differentiation. Well, we kind of packed the topics that were voted on with romantic stuff, so there were soulmates and then there was a danger of lust. And soulmates was a very close second, and so it's.
Speaker 2:They actually ended up tying.
Speaker 3:Oh well, I hadn't voted yet.
Speaker 2:So it was after the fact, so it was after the deadline, but it did tie for soulmates and romantic spark.
Speaker 3:And I think you can talk about soulmates here a little bit in contrast to romantic spark and how they might be a little bit different. But I'm curious just in general, because a romantic spark is something that I feel like I've seen a lot of in art and literature and movies and it's I've had to mind back in my life and think about the sparks and a lot of non-sparks that are there.
Speaker 2:Those are called fizzles. Fizzles or just, like you know, falling on your face type things, which I think is probably the majority of the time.
Speaker 3:Maybe that should be a topic for another time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, falling on your face.
Speaker 3:I'll have lots of stories to tell about that.
Speaker 2:Yes, I have none. That has never happened to me. I have 100 percent about a thousand baby.
Speaker 3:Well, good for you. Good for you. Maybe I could pick up some tips. It's false, false.
Speaker 2:Not true.
Speaker 3:So here's what I'm wondering, Kirk Are there movies that you think about that have an element of what you feel is like a romantic spark in them?
Speaker 2:I think that all romantic comedies, that's the essence of the story. That's like, especially when you look at up to you know, 2010 or so, if you look at like you know 40, 50 years of it. It tends to be, you know, like the cliche that people talk about, where, oh, they ride off into the sunset and everything's perfect. Life's not like that and to some degree that's true, right, life isn't like that, where it's just life is the sunset and everything's perfect and la, la, la, la la.
Speaker 2:But the movies, what they're capturing, I think, are that is the romantic spark. It is that initial moment of, you know, they won the meat cute that you hear in Hollywood, where two couples meet and then it's how they fell in love. It's about the spark occurring and then the rest of their life is how I would, you know, look at as, hopefully, the spark continuing or possibly exploding into a lifetime of love. But if you look at, like you know, notting Hill, which is one of the most popular romantic comedies of all time, it tends to be, you know, one party is kind of infatuated with the other, one Doesn't think they're in the Julia Roberts and Hugh Grant, and you know, like one's a movie star, one's a failure at a bookstore.
Speaker 2:you know, bookstore owner, used travel, bookstore of all things, and and he doesn't travel anywhere, which I think is part of the idea. And then you know, but the whole thing is like she finally she does kind of fall in love with him in a sense, but it can't work out. The whole movie is how they're going to. You know, make the romance work. But the essence of it, I think, is this first initial spark and then making that, you know, happen, making the spark happen.
Speaker 3:So would you say, because you're describing a little bit, like the whole movie in essence is like the romantic spark, but would you say that there's a particular point in the movie where that spark is ignited?
Speaker 2:That's what I would call like the meat. Cute sometimes is that, but there's other. There's other moments, because there's a lot of movies where the woman, for instance, doesn't like the man, or it's a fake relationship that turns into a real relationship, right.
Speaker 3:Okay, so that's important there. Yeah, so that the romantic spark involves not just one person, like seeing and having being struck by lightning and saying, oh, wow, she's amazing. Or oh, my goodness, she's so handsome, I'm in love. It's not like Romeo seeing Juliet across the room.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I have wait.
Speaker 3:can I hold on a moment? Let me finish this point here.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you brought that up.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean who, who?
Speaker 2:isn't going to bring up Romeo and Juliet for this. That's a good point?
Speaker 3:No, but I was. I was actually thinking to begin with what you know, romeo and Juliet might be like a good romantic spark kind of story, but but that initial meeting if I'm remembering correctly, it's Romeo sees her, and so maybe a romantic spark. There's one where you see the person and fall in love. And then there's the other where there's the two of you who start to have a connection together. Yeah, spark between the two of you. So that's actually a you know what. That's making me think about this concept a little bit differently, okay.
Speaker 2:So the combination versus just one side.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I was thinking, now we'll go ahead with what you were saying about Romeo and Juliet.
Speaker 2:Well, I actually found the, you know, first moment when Romeo sees Juliet to get the language. I'm not going to read the whole passage, but he says his first line oh, she, I'm going to say Doth does for Doth, oh, she does, teach the torches to burn bright. Talk about spark and you know, flames, right, and the kind of idea. And he at the end he says did my heart love till now? And so, you know, and so that's a kind of motif, right, it's like this almost awakening, like I've. I've finally been awakened, I've finally been aware, been made aware of something, and I think that's kind of part of the romantic aspect of the spark.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like there's a switch, and you see this in romantic comedies and romance movies, movies of all type all the time where, again, they didn't.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like the best friend, who's just a best friend. And then all of a sudden, the girl like and I really love Ryan Reynolds movies ever since Van Wilder, and you know there's that movie, Just Friends, that he did in, I think, the early 2000s with Amy Smart, and you know, he's just, he's like this fat guy, and then he goes out and loses weight and then he comes back 10 years later and tries to win the girl, but he's still kind of goofy and messes it all up and they're just friends right. But then there's a moment when there's kind of a switch right when she sees him a little bit differently, and sometimes in that, that kind of switch is what I think of when I think of the romantic spark, and it could be an either party, it can be the man, you know, with the woman too, like the man's a playboy and he only wants to sleep around, and then all of a sudden he sees her for something else, you know.
Speaker 3:So Okay, so that all right. That's interesting and I think it's really brought up that it can be a moment after you know the person, but there's some new facet of them that is exhibited that maybe you discover or that is not newly meaningful to you. So, as I've been thinking about just the examples of romantic sparks, it occurred to me that a lot of the great literature that I love doesn't have satisfying romantic spark moments to me, because I was thinking about romantic spark and connection to soulmates. And when you talk about soulmates you think of something more substantive, that there are two individuals who are clearly defined, who match up in a sense, who see something in each other and you, you know each of them very well.
Speaker 3:But a romantic spark often in literature, just like the Romeo and Juliet example, is often oh, she's beautiful and I'm having these feelings, these hormones, and it's often not premised on on something more substantive, about what matters to you in your life and what matters to you in a potential mate. And I was thinking about, okay, what are some moments? Romantic sparks that kind of give an indication that there is something deeper and more meaningful there. And there's one particular movie that comes back to mind for me, and admittedly it's. It's actually, I think, of more of a one-sided spark, but it's one where there is a deep connection immediately in the, in the strike of love. That spark of love that initiates it is based on something profound, and I don't know if you've seen the movie impromptu, kirk impromptu.
Speaker 2:No, I haven't seen that one. I'll check it out.
Speaker 3:It's a romantic comedy and it has you granting it. Oh, okay, and it's about the, the love affair between Chopin and the author as George Sound and the. The spark for that movie is she sneaks into a room to get away from a lover and she happens to sneak into Chopin's room and hides under the piano while he's playing the piano and then, as he's playing he he starts to play this amazingly romantic piece, and I'm going to have to remember what that romantic piece is.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry, we could put it in the show notes.
Speaker 3:There's wind coming through the windows because she went through the windows and he stops playing and she immediately gets out from below the piano. She doesn't know she's there and says, oh, do not stop, you're in the middle of a miracle. And at that moment she's just in love with the creator of this music and that's her meek cute. But that capacity for this profound emotion and art that she sees in that moment, in a kind of effeminate weekly show pen, is the spark that forms the basis for what goes on after with their relationship. But it's something that I've been fascinated by and I don't know, maybe this is something that might be a fun exercise to do for you, kirk, or for you, dear listener, which is to think back to your romantic relationships and to think about that romantic spark moment and to see how, what was embedded in that romantic spark that led to the meaning of that romantic relationship that you had.
Speaker 3:Yeah there was something there at the beginning.
Speaker 2:I think that's really interesting. That's something we can explore as we explore these artworks that I chose and that you chose. That, I think, will help expand our understanding of that concept of what are. What are these artists have to say about a romantic spark? Because there's a lot of literature, there's a lot of personal examples we can bring to this. But of course, you know, artists have, I think, a unique insight, especially into love. It's something they seem to be obsessed with. If you read poetry, I mean, there's thousands of love poems and love songs and love movies, and I think for a good reason. It's a big part of our lives. So why don't we jump into your painting? And you could surprise me and maybe I'll have a romantic spark for your painting.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 2:I'm there.
Speaker 3:Okay, I'm interested to see what you think about this. It's one that is at the National Gallery of Art. I'd like to recommend that if, if you can see the artwork while you're listening, that's great. If you can catch a glimpse of the artwork before we dive into it, that's wonderful. And Kirk, where, where can our listener see the artwork?
Speaker 2:Oh yes, good question, or a good reminder. So everybody you know we recommend go check out the artwork, but don't look at the title, but go into the show notes and go to tubidormagcom. I'll put a link in the show notes to wherever you're listening to this podcast so that way you can go and view on the blog the actual painting that Luke is going to be showing to me.
Speaker 5:I see a woman and a girl gazing outside of an open window. They are also facing the viewer, so you get a full view of their faces. The woman is slightly behind the window shutter and she has half of her face covered with her head dressing, but you can tell that she's obviously smiling, she's obviously happy about something. The girl next to her I suspect to be her daughter and she is leaning against the window sill with her head propped up in her hand. She has a very sweet expression and she's very obviously looking at whatever the subject of their interest is, or whoever for that matter.
Speaker 1:I see an older woman and a younger woman looking at what I imagine is a man acting a fool on the street, a young man who the mother is maybe remembering back to her youth and laughing and thinking he's being funny for trying to attract the attention of the girl and she likes him. And then the young girl is looking admiringly amused and is also kind of has a bit of a dreamy look in her eye like she's thinking about herself while she's watching what's happening, and it seems like they're on an upstairs window looking down at the street.
Speaker 4:There are two girls at the window looking outside, almost enjoying what they're seeing. One has her headpiece wrapped around her face, hiding a smile. The other one is just semi smiling, with flowers in her hair and a matching coral red bow. She's leaning on her hand that is bolt up into a fist, while the other one is laying on the window sill. There is darkness behind them, not being able to see anything in the room. It looks like it's probably midday, with the sun glowing on their skin.
Speaker 3:All right, Kirk, are you ready?
Speaker 2:I am ready.
Speaker 3:Okay, would you give a quick title for this one?
Speaker 2:I will. Here it is, I think, of. Smitten is the first word that comes to mind.
Speaker 3:All right Wonderful.
Speaker 2:I have two figures, so let me, let me get a chance to submit and only replies to one of these figures. For sure I like this like I like this painting. Right away, I'll just say that I don't know why I like it, I just know that I like it. So there's two women, a younger girl of some sort, girl as in, probably teenager of some sort, maybe even young, early twenties, and then a more modest woman, off to her, I guess, right from her angle. They are at a window sill, I believe that's a window sill, and the young girl is leaning over with her hand on her chin, on her cheek, actually leaning forward, and she's clearly looking at something Probably someone, would be my assumption, because she's looking adoringly. Like you know, there's some love in there. Now, as I look at this older, you know and by older I don't mean ancient, I mean middle age woman I actually noticed that she's, it looks like she's smiling. So it's not like some.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she could be wearing a face mask. She could be wearing a face mask. She's got.
Speaker 2:She's got the cheeks that are coming up.
Speaker 3:I see a little bit covering her mouth with that, that. Whatever the headdress, headdress mouth with that, but you still see the smile in the crow's feet of her eyes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so she's also smiling. She's kind of covering up. She's a little, maybe coy, and you know she's also in fact. So she's not that Not the old. I assume she's older. It could be that they're similar ages, but I assume she's like 30s, 40s, older. But she's not like the what's the word I'm looking for, Like the chaperone that's trying to protect this woman and, like you know, the old nurse maid that's like get over here, Don't look at that man Right.
Speaker 3:It's OK, like whoever would say in Romeo and Juliet, for Juliet has a non good nurse, a non yeah, good nurse yeah. Who's telling her don't go to the?
Speaker 2:balcony window for exactly yes, she's not that You're suggesting that it looks like she's maybe encouraging this.
Speaker 3:Maybe little interaction that might be going on.
Speaker 2:Possibly even living vicariously through this one Like, oh, I wish I could get me some of that Right, like that kind of she's.
Speaker 3:That's an interesting quote to have for her. What would you quote for the girl who's who's looking adorably?
Speaker 2:She even looks like some actress I can't name right now. I'm like her face and I mean she is smitten, is the word I mean. She would probably look up to the nurse and says, wow, isn't he wonderful? Is the words that I would get her to say next.
Speaker 3:Could you imagine her saying that just right now, or even now, like in her head? Like, isn't he?
Speaker 2:the perfect human, you know it's. I get the impression she's seeing someone that she is seeing for the first time, but maybe knew about my reputation type thing.
Speaker 3:Like what's giving you that impression?
Speaker 2:Just to look on her face. I don't have anything specific.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And she's not doing anything concrete to you know. Put that as the thing she's doing.
Speaker 3:So here's a question Do you think that the person that she's looking at is looking back at her and their eyes are meeting, or is this her just looking at him?
Speaker 2:So my impression is her looking at him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that's what I'm feeling too, that there's some kind of she's. She's leaned over like she's taken in a show.
Speaker 2:There you go. That's what I was trying to get at. Yes.
Speaker 3:And she's really absorbed into, into just staring at him and I could imagine him kind of maybe there walking the streets with his buddies or like doing something, and and the I'll call her the nurse who's got a headdress on, maybe a little bit more modest than the young girl she looks like she's she's halfway. Oh, I wish I'd get me some of that. But also kind of embarrassed to like.
Speaker 2:Embarrassed. Yeah, it's kind of prudish feeling.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but there is something kind of slightly scandalous going on.
Speaker 2:Have you seen my big fat Greek wedding?
Speaker 3:Yeah, a long time ago.
Speaker 2:So this girl like, although she's much more attractive than the girl in the, which is made in my big fat Greek wedding, made to look, you know, more plain, but when she first sees the man and she's a waiter, waitress, she's carrying coffee and she just stares at him for like 10 seconds, like in the middle of the scene.
Speaker 3:I've got to see that scene. That's a great connection.
Speaker 2:And then she's like fumbling around when he notices and she pours the wrong people coffee. You know, the guy is with his friend and he is like can I get coffee? He's like waving the coffee cup in front of her and she goes over to the handsome man and gives him the coffee, even though he didn't ask for any. So it's like that kind of feeling of that's what I get when she's looking at him, you know, adoringly, and like wow like All right, so I'll tell you a little bit about my experience with this artwork.
Speaker 3:It's life-size.
Speaker 2:Wow, really.
Speaker 3:Yes, and it's at the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC and I've seen it a couple of times and, walking into the room, guess what you feel like.
Speaker 2:They're looking at you. Oh, no way. Like they're looking at you, yeah, that's wonderful. I'm going to have to get one of these because, like that, like everybody deserves to have someone look at them like this, I think that's how I feel. I love that statement Maybe not everybody, but most people, most good people, if you're a good person. Everybody Okay.
Speaker 3:You'll notice it, that feeling of someone looking at you like, oh my God, you're wonderful.
Speaker 2:So can I tell you a personal story now real quick. Sure, one of the times that I would say in my personal life when I was probably most in love, like a real love in my life, the moment that I like we had known each other for like six, seven months and there was a moment when I was doing something you know in the world my job actually and she was in the audience and she looked at me like that, and that's when I would say that was the romantic spark for us.
Speaker 3:That's great. I like that Because there's something about her that seems unaware of you noticing her.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, that's a good thing to have a good way to put it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that that's something that maybe is also what you're responding to with her in the audience there. So, yeah, it's. You know, this is kind of a one sided kind of spark, where we're seeing the spark for her, but when I walk into the room, I'm feeling the spark too. I'm, you know. I always say you know, put yourself in the place of the characters that are there. This one is, you are the character that's there. Yes, that is having this connection and I'm immediately in love with her because of this kind of forthright look of wonder, wondering, adoration that she has.
Speaker 2:The power of like.
Speaker 2:The power of like and the kind of like that she's showing kind of like well, what I mean by that is like one of the things that, like, you learn in sales, for instance. But I think this is this trend like dating coaches talk about this all the time is that there's a power in, if you let somebody know that you have feelings for them, that can spark the feeling and them that maybe wasn't there before, that they didn't see you in that way. Right, and then they make it clear like, oh, I feel this way for you. Then they're like, oh, you know, I never thought about this person that way. And then they can start seeing you like that. And then they start saying, oh, this person is smart, this person is good looking, this person is kind, you know going, you know all these things. That wasn't there. It was a spark. The spark was you looking and liking them First. This is the power of liking.
Speaker 3:So I think I see that component of it here, that that power of liking. I want to add that there is characterization as well here for her. That makes her a certain kind of person that I, I like even more. Beyond just that she likes me. And because if you, if you change the painting slightly, and well, you take her away and you make the focus on the other woman, with her, with her, her, her fabric over her face covering her her, her mouth, slightly embarrassed, she's still showing that she's liking you and she's intrigued. Yes, it's a different kind and I'm not as attracted to that as I am to the younger one who's there. And it makes me think of that scene from. I really like that you brought my big fact regretting. I'm very curious now. But it also makes me think of that scene from impromptu where Jean D'Anne is just so openly adoring of Chopin. It's like you are God.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And and that kind of open adoration shows something about her and her soul that I really really like. So this artwork for me was a kind of a mutual spark when you first walk into that room and you see that person, the kind of person that you want to like you.
Speaker 2:Well, and remember how I, you know I said smitten was the first word, but when I saw it again, the thing that I said was I like this painting right away, and I don't know why. Right.
Speaker 2:And I think, and I think it's exactly what you're saying, because it's these two figures, it's, it would be different, it was just one or the other. If it was just the nurse, you know, I might still like it, I think, oh, she's kind of cute, but it was the nurse, without the young maiden, you know, looking at me, because, you're right, they are looking right at you. And if it's life size and you walk in this room and you see these two women looking at you, you know, I can almost imagine it. Like you walk into a room is like these, you know, women looking at you, wow, okay, how are you doing? And you know, so you get the, you get the.
Speaker 2:If it was just the, the older woman, I would still probably like it. Like it because of the way she's looking at me, but I don't think it would be as powerful as both of them because I don't see her face Right, like I have to look a little closer. Is she just looking at me or is she liking? And then I see, oh, she is. I can tell she's smiling, but the kind of coiness gets in the way of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, that's great. I like that there's no coiness on on the main character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's very proud and open.
Speaker 3:The title for this artwork is is underwhelming, and I think it's something like two women at a window, really so that's even better actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, painting speaks for itself.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I like a little bit more insight and often titles like this are often titles like this are given by the curators of the museum or as part of a catalog by some previous owner. So, but nothing very specific. The artist is named Esteban Murillo M-U-R-I-L-L-O. Spanish artist, I believe, I believe 17th century. I want to say All right, so Esteban Murillo, yes.
Speaker 2:I love it. The power of liking, that's what I'm going to call this beauty, the beauty of like something like that. All right, think about it, but I like it. That one's wonderful.
Speaker 3:Great, glad you enjoyed it. Now I'm intrigued about taking a look at this poem.
Speaker 2:All right, so let's get into the poem. Now the poem is. I think it would be quite different, as it always is, but let's see if we can find any similarities and differences. Only thing I'm going to set up is that the word. I don't want you to get lost right away.
Speaker 2:This is a poem from a while ago. The word troth means truth. It's the first law in the first line. So just listen and then we'll discuss it afterwards. But I will say that it's a little bit of a challenging poem. So the poem is called the Good Morrow by John Dunne.
Speaker 2:And here we go. I wonder by my troth, what thou and I did till we love. Were we not weaned till then but sucked on country pleasures childishly? Or snorted we in the seven sleeper's den? T'was so, but this all pleasures fancies be. If ever any beauty I did see which I desired and got, t'was but a dream of thee. And now, good morrow to our waking souls which watch not one another, out of fear for love. All love of other sights controls and makes one little room. And everywhere let's see, discoverers to new worlds have gone. Let maps to other worlds on worlds have shown. Let us possess one world, each half one and is one. My face in thine eye, thine in mine appears, and true plain hearts do in the faces rest. Where can we find two better hemispheres without sharp north, without declining west? Whatever dies was not mixed equally. If our two loves be one, or thou and I love so alike, that none do slacken.
Speaker 3:None can die All right, all right, you weren't kidding, yeah that's a.
Speaker 3:This is a challenging poem, and even you sent this to me an hour ago and I took a quick look at it, and even so, there's a lot in here that I feel like I don't have a clear idea of. I've got vague notions, so here's my vague summary. It's about two lovers and it's basically saying you know what you're the world. To me, you're the only one that really matters. And then it goes on. I think an extended metaphor about how we are each a world, or that's what we care about. You're a world, I'm a world, and that's all that matters. Let other travelers go do their thing. But the world began when I got to know you, or I wasn't in love with you, and that's it. So that's as much as I think I've got. I've got several little questions. I think the first answer was the one that I felt was clearest. Okay, so let's For me.
Speaker 2:Let's go through that one then.
Speaker 3:Okay, so I'll reread parts of it and go up to a certain point where I'm not quite clear. I wonder, by my truth, what thou and I did till we loved? Were we not weaned till then, but sucked on country pleasures childishly, or snorted we and the seven sleepers then? So the seven sleepers then is the part that I'm really getting stumped on. The rest of it is.
Speaker 2:So let's get that for now. Just do the first three lines. Yeah, I'll tell you the set yeah sleepers.
Speaker 3:Then and I'm going to say that for the first three lines there are. I guess we had some fun childhood right, but it was didn't really add up to anything until we fell in love.
Speaker 2:So think about. He's saying I wonder, by my truth, what did we do before we loved? This is opening question. And then he says were we not weaned till then? Now, weaned, of course, think about breastfeeding, and then think about weaning off of that into other foods. And he talks about, but sucked on country pleasures childishly. Now, this isn't, we don't have the connotation. But back then country basically meant low, rustic, peasant right, not high and refined and moral. I guess you could say so I'll just say what I think he's saying. Here is and I have a translation that I put together that what did we do before we loved? Right, were we still breastfeeding? Did we only enjoy simple childish things as in what like seeing? Think about the first line of Romeo and Juliet or the line that I said here did my heart love till now as one of the last?
Speaker 2:thing, Like what was I doing? It's the kind of a way I think of it as an awakening. What was I doing? I was just hanging out with these chickies.
Speaker 3:Then, loving it's, did I even exist till I started loving you?
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think it is a deep poem in that sense. And here's the let me tell you the seven sleepers den thing this is an illusion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's for snorted. We and the seven sleepers den yes Snorted.
Speaker 2:Snorted.
Speaker 3:Well snore, just think snoring but oh, okay, ah, okay yes.
Speaker 2:So this is an illusion. It's a Christian tradition that I wasn't even aware of and the idea is, during the time of Emperor Odysseus in Rome, there were the seven men who rebelled and they want, they wanted away from him. So they went in a cave and he sealed. The Roman emperor sealed them up and they fell asleep for 200 years and were, you know, came out later in a Christian era aspect. They were awakened in this new era of Christianity and so they slept through it. And he's kind of saying are we like these people who have been asleep for 200 years snoring in our caves, now to be awakened in the time of, you know, the enlightenment in Christ and things like that? You know the truth.
Speaker 3:Okay, so basically, did we have a childhood where we, where we sucked on our mother's teeth and slept a lot because I didn't feel like I existed until I fell in love with you?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:So the next part of that is it was so, but this all pleasures fancies be. If ever any beauty I did see which I desired and got, it was but a dream of thee. So even when there was something that was pleasurable in my childhood that there was, I was, it was because I was dreaming of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. All right, that's kind of. That's how I put it, yeah.
Speaker 3:I love that. Yeah, so that next stands begins with it goes into all right, so you're the okay, what is it so?
Speaker 2:just think of Moro as morning, by the way. And now, good morning to our waking souls.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this is the waking souls are waking to the love of each other. So and now, good moro to our waking souls which watch not one another out of fear. So can you help me with that which watch not one another out of fear?
Speaker 2:So if you're with a loved one and you think of these two people in bed, and if you wake up and you look at her and you're afraid of something, in the context of lovers, what is the thing you're probably afraid of?
Speaker 3:That she's not going to love you anymore.
Speaker 2:That she's not going to love you anymore. I think that's in watch, not one another. So the fear of not being loved back and possibly the fear that they're cheating on you, that there's a jealousy going on here, right, okay, which watch? So that you know it's like if you I don't remember that's there's a song and it's like on the tip of my tongue but it's. You know that loving feeling has gone and you know that idea that that's the fear of the loving feeling leaving, of being jealous of the other person.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, so they're not afraid. There's no fear here in their relationship. Okay, for love, all love of other sites controls and makes one little room and everywhere. So I think out of the whole poem that might be my favorite line. And makes one little room and everywhere.
Speaker 2:What do you think that means?
Speaker 3:Well, it goes on to describe all these other worlds that that you know, discoverers and maps can have and you know what. That doesn't matter all these other worlds and all this travel and newfound continents and so forth, because everything that I need is right here in this room and makes one little room and everywhere All right. Let us possess one world, each hath one and is one. How do you make of that line? Last line of that stands like let us possess one world, each hath one and is one.
Speaker 2:So I think that what you were saying is relevant to this whole second passage in terms of you have a like in this room. If you look at it literally, that's going to be the entirety of the universe, and now there's going to be explorers like Christopher Columbus going across the sea. They're going to be discovering new things. We're discovering each other. This is our universe, and he's going to talk about the hemisphere later. This is our universe, and let us possess one world. That's us. Each hath one, each has one world. You, madam, my love, or a world, and is one. I am a world as well.
Speaker 3:So there's, this thing together, we're one world everywhere. There's a distinction between everywhere and the world. A world is the planet within the universe. The universe, this room now, is the universe for us, and you and I are a planet facing each other in this universe. Yeah, okay, all right. So then the third sense is about exploring these planets. As we look at each other, my face and thine eye, thine and mine, appears, and true, plain hearts do in the faces rest. So my heart is not on my sleeve, my heart is on my face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, our hearts are visible on our face.
Speaker 3:Where can we find two better hemispheres without sharp north, without declining west? So I sharp north and declining west. I don't quite understand. So the whole, that whole sentence again, or that whole clause is where can we find two better hemispheres without sharp north, without declining west? So what's going on there, kirk?
Speaker 2:If you think about it, what is so? He's trying to design his world as even better than the actual world that they, the world outside of the room, right, the world that the travelers experience. So in the sharp, in the far north, what do we know about the North Pole?
Speaker 3:Oh, sharp cold, it's a bit cold, right and decline.
Speaker 2:Where does the sun set?
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:In the west right.
Speaker 3:So the idea is no sunsets, there are no cold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so where can we find two better globes without the cold of the North and or the darkness that comes when the sun sets in the west? So it's kind of he's now couching this in eternal. You know it's like an eternal morning.
Speaker 3:Got it Whatever. Dies was not mixed, equally Okay.
Speaker 2:This is the most confusing to me, actually.
Speaker 3:All right, the last three lines again, or the, because that's the first of the last three. So the last three lines, whatever dies, was not mixed. Equally, if our two loves be one or thou and I love so alike, that none do slacken, none can die. Well done, all right, I'm I'm fully confused.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, so I would actually take those as slightly separated. So you know, because you have that semicolon, so whatever dies was not mixed. Equally, the only thing I you know, there's like a chemistry thing that I'm not familiar with Open out my theory. Go for it.
Speaker 3:So whatever dies was not mixed equally. So whatever dies in our love, whatever is not part of our love, is not something that we both brought to it. So whatever was in addition to us, like there's certain aspects of us that aren't part of this, the two hemispheres joined together. That goes by the wayside. Is that it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's the right track, and I would just add that he's actually kind of, I think, making a statement like a prop, like just saying a truth. By the way, ma'am, whatever dies was not mixed equally. Then the next phrase is important If our two loves be one or you and I love so alike that none do slack and none can die. So because we're mixed perfectly, we are going to live forever, eternal Right. So he has a proposition that whatever dies, right, dies there and then does not die at the end, because you know and the chemistry thing is the way you're putting it, I think is accurate If you put the wrong sodium with alcohol I don't know anything about chemistry and it's going to explode. If you have the wrong proportions, you don't mix it, but they're mixed perfectly. That's his next statement.
Speaker 3:Okay, so mixed perfectly, all right.
Speaker 2:So that's the poem.
Speaker 3:So, what would you say I'm trying to identify now kind of a theme or a deeper meaning here. So what is the saying about love it's? Is it saying, okay, I have somebody that I matched up well with?
Speaker 2:Well, let me, let me let me narrow it down for you a little bit. If does this have to be so? All we know about it is that there's two lovers in a bed, basically right, or because they're waking up and saying, good morning, it's the good morrow.
Speaker 3:Okay, all right, that's. That's an interesting spin on things there. This is, this is the next morning. This is after they've met, after they fall in love, after they've made love.
Speaker 2:Well, here's what I, but here's what I wanted to say to narrow it down yeah, do, does he? Is there anything in here for evidence that you know as to the nature of their grander relationship? Like, are they married? Are they two married people who just found each? You know they're cheating. Are they? Did they just, like you just said, did they just meet each other last night and have a one night stand, or have they been, you know? Are there any indications about any aspect of that level of the relationship or that aspect of the relationship?
Speaker 3:So the only thing that I'm seeing is that that first sense is talking about what my childhood, rather than other things like examples, like when I was in college and yeah, and went to my classes. I don't remember anything. The teacher taught because I didn't exist till I met you and the only times I was I was happy was when I dream the dream of you.
Speaker 2:And all. Let me read the last two lines of Romeo and Juliet. Again was first time Did my heart love till now, for swear it site, for I never saw true beauty till this night. So I, the way I take it and this is just my, my viewing of it is this poem actually says nothing about their previous relationship. Even in this first stanza, he's saying that you know, just like Romeo who, by the way, was in love with Rosalind quote unquote right before this, right, and you know, he's saying that all that doesn't matter. Now that I've seen you, right, it was like I was asleep, like the seven sleepers, dead, and now I'm awakened by seeing you. Now you're right, though, that it could be exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 2:My point that I'm trying to make in terms of the relationship is there's no indication of the grander aspect of the relationship. They could be married. If you read this and think these are two 45 year old married couples and he's kind of reawakening to how much he loves her, it would still apply. You know you could. You could still say the same thing if they were childhood friends that became lovers. It would see the same thing If he was married to somebody he didn't love. She was married, somebody she didn't love. They met each other, fell in love and had sex one night. This could still apply to that right, so it doesn't say anything about that. It's really focused on this one aspect of you know, this universe that they've built in this moment, which is why I, you know, chose it for romantic spark.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I can see that it's kind of like an extension of what Romeo is feeling when he sees Juliet for the first time. Yeah, so that the one part that's making me think this is early on in the relationship is is that is that last ends, the second after the last end, so whatever dies was was not equally mixed. If our two loves be one or down and I love so alike that none do slacken, none can die. So he's kind of talking about, okay, what will come in the future, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah and I this is the romantic comedy of driving off into the sunset thing you I mean for me. I hope they get together. We, I don't know anything about them. I don't know who this guy is. It's he's saying it all and I do feel this about you. I mean he could be a nut in his room dreaming about somebody for all I know. It could be you know all. Just some crazy guy who's stalking some woman, like I don't know, because I don't see her side of things, but I want them to be together, like I. I, like you're saying I want them to be mixed. I just don't know.
Speaker 3:All right. So if you were to walk into the National Gallery with this poem in hand and you stepped into the gallery with the young woman at the window and you saw her looking at you and you like. You said, immediately, felt you liked. You liked her what? What would you take from the poem to tell her?
Speaker 2:Well, let's see.
Speaker 3:Would you use this poem to describe your feelings towards her at that moment?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think in a way for sure. I mean because I said you know I like to. Obviously it's a painting, so it's a little weird to say, but like if it were, like a love, that.
Speaker 3:I like being weird like that. I want to recognize. That's the whole thing about my whole approach to art appreciation. Be weird like that, imagine that she's real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, but exactly, and you can imagine making a world, a universe in that, like going into that, that you know, climbing into that window and making a universe out of that room. But like that, that kind of feeling, I think, of the good morrow of you know enjoying that, would be very present for what this poem is saying, as well as the feeling that you get from that painting or that I got from the painting.
Speaker 3:Can I tell you that, the two lines that I'm looking over the poem, so if I'm there in front of her and I'm looking at her and, listener, I recommend, like holding up the image of the painting as you listen to these lines to see how effective it might be. I might say something to her like I wonder by my truth, what thou and I did till we loved. And then the second thing I would say would be let's see. I would say, and now, good morrow to our waking souls, which watch not one another out of fear, and you use that word openness to describe her. And then that that good morning, I mean even the light shining on her face as coming out of the darkness of this room as she stares at you, and this lack of fear that she has as she's looking at you, and I want to look back at her with that lack of fear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love that. And you know the other thing, that when you were pointing out that when you walk into this art museum or art museum and she's looking at you, my face in thine eye, thine in mine appears, and true, true playing hearts do in the faces rest. So it's kind of like I'm, I'm seeing myself in reflected in her adoration for me.
Speaker 3:And that goes back to what you're making about the power of like the power of like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's. But it's also, like you know, when I think about my personal experience with the, you know the, when I was telling you about which I have other ones like that where I'm working, and this seems, seems to be a motif of a female that becomes attracted to me personally, as through my work often, and it's, it's the look, but it she's reflecting something that I'm doing right, because it's different if I'm just like sitting there, you know, chewing on food, and then she's like, oh, what a stud, right, versus I'm doing the thing that I love and I'm passionate, and so, in other words, the thing that I value and what makes me me and that lights me up, that's what is reflecting in her eyes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's interesting. So what you're hoping that she's looking at is not just he's hanging out with his buddies, but maybe you're driving along on your motorcycle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what a bad mofo, Scary guy. And then they and it's like, all right, I mean yeah. So I mean, and there's certain values that are reflected, and I think that because the painting that you showed doesn't illustrate that these like it's, it's love for whatever values you see, it doesn't have the other person, so we can't see he could be a knight, he could be a painter, he could be a powerful man, so she could be a lot of things she could be in love with. Just like the poem doesn't really tell you the nature of the, the, the people in it or the relationship that are in. We just know the feeling of awakening, the awakening soul the feeling of an awakening soul.
Speaker 3:That's a part of a romantic spark that I think is really powerful, maybe when you know that that romantic spark is there. So that's what the poem captures and I think that's what this painting captures as well in her. So it feels like that there's a lot in common between the two kinds of moments here. Wait, can I say one thing to maybe connect them?
Speaker 2:Now, this may be radical, so don't get mad. But what if we refrained this whole thing with the poem and the painting together, where she is the lover in this poem and John Dunn, the author, is the man and he had just left and she's watching him walk away? What if you phrased it in that kind of story where they were just in this universe together and she's watching him as he's going about his day, or something like that? So it's kind of like two husband and wife. What do you think of that? Is that too crazy?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, no, no. So imagine something a little bit different there that they've already had the moment and he's going, they've had their romantic spark, and then this is her looking after. Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:Well, I think yeah, but I think it's both ways. So this is his romantic spark. And so you know, imagine this woman in the painting an hour earlier was lying in bed with the author. He said this to her and she didn't say anything. And then he laughed right Because he had to go to work, like we all do in real life. And then, as he's leaving, she's looking at him in the same way, and then her nurse is like you know, getting the day ready, and so she's looking too and she's like you know it's. There is a feeling when you see young love that you know, kind of you can't help but smile, unless you are. What's that movie? As good as it gets with?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's been a while.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with Jack Nicholson, where he, whenever he sees lovers, he like snarls at them, he's cynical about it, he's like, oh God, they're going to be divorced in five years. Right, that's one way of looking at it. This is this nurse has the opposite of feeling, which is to look at this young love. They're so, you know, resplendent, and it's like such a beautiful thing to see this young love.
Speaker 3:I like that contrast between that Jack Nicholson character and her, because she she the nurse does add a little bit more of okay, this is, this is good stuff here. This is this is positive.
Speaker 2:It'd be totally different if she was sneering.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:The whole thing would be changed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a great point. So the poem is called the Good Morrow and I think I would call this painting the Good Morrow as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great combination, and it's the first time we've really kind of matched them. Yeah, In the past we've had always had quite a different take on the concepts.
Speaker 3:Well, the art works had had a different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, our selections.
Speaker 3:Well, speaking of, you know the, the, the concept. What's going to be our next topic?
Speaker 2:Okay, so next time we in this, you guys go to surprised by art for the group on Facebook. So you can vote. And here are the three. Three topics. Now we decided to choose single word topics, concepts. So here are the three aloneness, empathy, anger. That's three separate topics.
Speaker 3:So aloneness, empathy, anger, they. They feel very different and I think there's going to be a very different kind of artwork that comes, but I think that they all have to do with human relationships, your relationship with somebody. Do you want to have one? How do you have one, or do you want to get angry at them? Yeah, I'm going to be very curious to see what everybody is interested in in focusing on, I think. Do you have one that you're especially interested in, kirk?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want me to tell you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Aloneness.
Speaker 3:Aloneness.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I already have a poem I love that picked out for it and I think you know, going with everything that's going on right now, it's very prevalent, it's very on our minds. Plus, I'm an only child, so it's something that I've thought about a lot. Being alone is is, I think, kind of a unique experience to only children. So not that other people can't be alone, but of course they can. But I think there's just kind of like you're always somewhat alone because you don't have siblings to kind of explore the world with as a kid. All right, what about?
Speaker 3:you. You want to hear what Kirk has to say about aloneness I'm. I'm reserving my vote for later on. You'll have to check in on the on the Facebook group to find out where I might be leaning. All right, all right, kirk, this is fun. Thank you for sharing a poem with me.
Speaker 2:And we just wanted to say thank you to our voice recording guests Today. They were Patrick reason over of Tilius and Nexus, and just add firewatercom, emily Meir from the surprised by art Facebook group and Hillary Romero over at at Hillco homes on Facebook. Thank you, everybody and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you.