Why The Iliad Still Matters: Heroes, Glory & Human Emotion

In this episode of The Troubadour Show, host Kirk Barbera welcomes teacher, literature coach, and art educator Luc Travers to explore Homer’s Iliad—the ancient Greek epic that helped shape Western civilization. Discover why The Iliad remains timeless: from Achilles’ legendary rage and Hector’s humanizing struggles, to the eternal questions of honor, glory, and empathy. Kirk and Luc dive deep into the epic’s most poignant moments, revealing how its lessons on life and death still resonate with readers today.

Join Kirk’s Literary Canon Club:
https://www.troubadour.studio/literary-canon-club
(A vibrant community dedicated to reading and discussing the greatest works of literature.)

Connect with Luc Travers:

Website: LiteratureAtOurHouse.com
Art Book: Touching the Art – A unique guide to understanding and appreciating paintings and sculpture.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:07:05
Unknown
Welcome to the troubadour show. We're going to be talking about the greatest book of all time.

00:00:07:05 - 00:00:08:08
Unknown
We'll see if you guys are.

00:00:08:08 - 00:00:12:08
Unknown
I love this book, but we're going to be talking about the Iliad. And,

00:00:12:08 - 00:00:18:08
Unknown
I will be telling you that I read it as a kid because someone told me was the greatest book of all time.

00:00:18:09 - 00:00:23:00
Unknown
So I read it thinking it was that. And we can talk about, you know, what that means.

00:00:23:00 - 00:00:25:15
Unknown
I don't want to say old guest. Old,

00:00:25:15 - 00:00:30:21
Unknown
co-host, like, no, 45, but, you know, that's it. Yeah, maybe in ancient Greece.

00:00:30:21 - 00:00:34:08
Unknown
Maybe achilles wise. It's old. You're not. You're not Homeric old,

00:00:34:08 - 00:00:41:00
Unknown
but old in the sense of you. And I used to do co-hosting shows a lot, and hopefully we'll do some more. And,

00:00:41:00 - 00:00:50:13
Unknown
you know, if you want to find more of Luke's content and what he's doing, he teaches at literature at our house. He has a book that I always recommend everybody get,

00:00:50:13 - 00:00:51:11
Unknown
touching the art.

00:00:51:11 - 00:01:02:01
Unknown
And you can go to it's a touching the dotcom. Yeah touching that. So literature at our house.com where he teaches literature and touching the arcom where he does some of the greatest in my opinion,

00:01:02:01 - 00:01:05:04
Unknown
discussions and interactions, especially for first timers.

00:01:05:04 - 00:01:10:08
Unknown
You know, for anybody, especially first timers, into painting and sculpture and the visual arts.

00:01:10:09 - 00:01:18:20
Unknown
So you just got done Luke teaching the Iliad. Now, is this your first time teaching the Iliad? Now, the third time.

00:01:18:20 - 00:01:21:09
Unknown
So I taught it three times over the past six years.

00:01:21:09 - 00:01:26:04
Unknown
Six years ago I taught first time, and it was the first time I read it. And I had our time with it,

00:01:26:04 - 00:01:27:02
Unknown
taught it again.

00:01:27:04 - 00:01:32:00
Unknown
Yeah, three years ago, a little bit better. And then this past time reading it and,

00:01:32:00 - 00:01:33:05
Unknown
listening to,

00:01:33:05 - 00:01:46:03
Unknown
the audiobook version of it to read along with it, which was really helpful, and reading a different translation to it than I had before. I had a great time reading it and and discussing it with my high school students.

00:01:46:05 - 00:01:57:18
Unknown
Yeah. So what? So why did you want to read it? The first time you read it? Like, what brought you to it? Because I'm a fan of the Odyssey, and I've read and taught the Odyssey and I love the Odyssey. And,

00:01:57:18 - 00:02:13:00
Unknown
I started the Iliad and I heard a little bit about the Iliad. And there's one thing that kind of intrigued me about the Iliad, that I'd heard about it, that it wasn't the story of the Trojan War, that it wasn't like Iliad and the Iliad is is much more particular is all about Achilles.

00:02:13:00 - 00:02:13:18
Unknown
And,

00:02:13:18 - 00:02:21:14
Unknown
I'd heard like it begins with like Achilles wrath and that the story was about this Achilles wrath. So that kind of unity, the,

00:02:21:14 - 00:02:39:12
Unknown
the one in the many, as the ancient Greek philosophers would put it, that is so much part of ancient Greek culture. I wanted to see that. I wanted to see that kind of, focused, purposeful thinking that went into a story that I'd started before and kind of felt like was all over the place.

00:02:39:14 - 00:03:03:05
Unknown
So that's what kind of drew me at last. Okay, let me let me get back into it, because this is an ancient Greek and they loved it and it was one of their Bibles. So that's what got me into it. Yeah. I mean, it was in a sense, that's where the whole idea of a canon comes from is that in the Bible, I think is just like essential reading that is ubiquitous across a culture as,

00:03:03:05 - 00:03:07:15
Unknown
you know, the, the framework for how their whole culture is operating on.

00:03:07:17 - 00:03:16:17
Unknown
And in medieval times, it's the Bible, right? During the ancient Greek times and Roman times, because Roman texts are heavily influenced and based on,

00:03:16:17 - 00:03:31:24
Unknown
Homer. So I think if you're at all interested in Greco Roman history or anything, and we all know from popular TikToks that men think about Rome every 15 minutes, right? Is that 15 minutes or 10 minutes?

00:03:32:02 - 00:03:39:24
Unknown
I yeah, I don't remember like, like once a day or sentence. I thought it was like people think 15 minutes. Not as often as sex. Come on. I was going to say I was like, I thought, I thought this was

00:03:39:24 - 00:03:44:16
Unknown
about sex. I mean, ten minutes like or five minutes, but I think it's 15 seconds, actually. 18 seconds.

00:03:44:16 - 00:03:51:20
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Now what else do you think about? Like, I like sex and all, but come on, let's move on. So but I so I think,

00:03:51:20 - 00:04:08:02
Unknown
you know, so, so it's this epochal work if you're interested in the great Greco-Roman times and all, if you just saw the Gladiator movie, you ought to learn a little bit about the basis of what those people thought and how they think and

00:04:08:02 - 00:04:11:02
Unknown
what shaped their behavior, their actions and their,

00:04:11:02 - 00:04:12:07
Unknown
you know, how they were.

00:04:12:13 - 00:04:22:03
Unknown
And I think you have to read The Iliad and the Odyssey to do it, to read Homer. So that's that to me is a big part of it. If you're you like my

00:04:22:03 - 00:04:32:14
Unknown
I have a thesis and I don't. I'm not alone in this. This isn't for me that you cannot understand history if you don't read the great shaping literature of that and art really of that era.

00:04:32:16 - 00:04:34:10
Unknown
Like you need to experience,

00:04:34:10 - 00:04:53:10
Unknown
17th century Renaissance art, literature, poems, Shakespeare, Don Quixote, the artwork and the philosophy and the the major works that they do. If you really are interested in learning about that era. So that's why I think everybody should read this. Well,

00:04:53:10 - 00:04:54:12
Unknown
I'll, I'll,

00:04:54:12 - 00:05:02:03
Unknown
one reason. Yes. And you and say, of course, that foundational to an understanding of literature is such foundational to understanding,

00:05:02:03 - 00:05:04:03
Unknown
Western civilization.

00:05:04:05 - 00:05:09:12
Unknown
I want to add one more little pitch that maybe might come through in our discussion, which is,

00:05:09:12 - 00:05:25:00
Unknown
if you want to explore and learn to introspect and find out who you are as a human being and what makes you tick, I think the Iliad is for you. Yeah. So that's that's my initial pitch. And at the end of our, our discussion of, we'll see if,

00:05:25:00 - 00:05:28:09
Unknown
I've conveyed that or we've discussed that or how that comes across.

00:05:28:11 - 00:06:04:15
Unknown
What can I ask? Because I agree with that 100%, of course. But I think that is the case of any great work of literature. Like that's one of the defining attributes. Like if you're going to read as it should, like that's why it resonates over time. Yeah. So I'll, I'll make a particular slant. I find the Iliad to be very psychological and to speak to things that are, not just broadly we're human beings, but to issues that you can have you have today as a modern human being that are about looking into yourself and understanding your emotions.

00:06:04:17 - 00:06:17:13
Unknown
It's I found this there's a lot of warfare, tons of warfare, lots of fights, lots of killing. And maybe we're going to share, like our top kill of the week. I, like you said that was your thing. I mean, there's some vividly descriptive kills,

00:06:17:13 - 00:06:26:14
Unknown
but at base, I, I, I think that this story is about how do you handle your emotions.

00:06:26:16 - 00:06:31:19
Unknown
And so that's maybe something that we explore. So psychological. Yeah.

00:06:31:19 - 00:06:54:09
Unknown
Introspection and understanding, not just who you are as a human being, but what your feelings can do to yourself and to harm other people. And where they come from and how to handle them. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's I would agree with that 100%. And, and I would even let's talk about that in a minute.

00:06:54:09 - 00:07:10:22
Unknown
I want to ask you, for instance, about this, either about that or other issues in the Iliad that really stuck out to you in this third reading that are powerful for you. And maybe you can talk about personal, you know, we could start off with some personal,

00:07:10:22 - 00:07:16:12
Unknown
connections to the work, because what you just said is something that I try to argue all the time, and I love it.

00:07:16:13 - 00:07:20:22
Unknown
I want to talk about it more about the specific,

00:07:20:22 - 00:07:36:14
Unknown
particular value of reading this, this work. And there's. Yeah, there's some other there's some values that are true of all works. And that's the mirror value, you know, teaching you something about self-awareness and things like that. But there are unique things about this,

00:07:36:14 - 00:07:39:06
Unknown
that I think are important for us to all as humans.

00:07:39:06 - 00:07:43:20
Unknown
And I think you hit on definitely some important ones. But do you have any like,

00:07:43:20 - 00:07:50:08
Unknown
for instances for you? Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's. Okay. Do you mind starting at all? So I mentioned earlier that,

00:07:50:08 - 00:07:55:21
Unknown
I don't know, ancient Greek, but I've heard scholars say that the first word is rage. Literally the first word is rage.

00:07:55:21 - 00:08:07:07
Unknown
And then Homer asking, hey, muse, help me sing about Achilles rage and the whole plot. If we want to say that the Iliad has a plot and I want to say, yeah, the Iliad does kind of have a plot,

00:08:07:07 - 00:08:19:20
Unknown
is about Achilles evolving anger and what quells it. And the opening scene is, you know, and I'm just restating here is Agamemnon says, hey, you know what?

00:08:19:22 - 00:08:39:19
Unknown
I know I'm, I'm putting the microscope here, and I'm being asked to do something I don't want to do. And but if I'm going to do it, then I've got to be recompense somehow. And Achilles, you're the one suggesting me that I give up my, my, my beautiful concubine. So I want to take yours as recompense.

00:08:39:19 - 00:09:06:16
Unknown
Because I am the king. I am the main man here in this army. And you better give me your briesius because I lost my concubine and the Achilles is like, oh, man, you are dishonor, and you are. And to put it another ways, you are making a fool of me in front of other people. You are not recognizing my worth.

00:09:06:18 - 00:09:26:00
Unknown
And if at any time you've gone into, your boss's office and asked for a raise and they said, I'm sorry, I'm not going to give you a raise, that feeling, that anger that you might have of somebody, is not recognizing my true value. Not just somebody who's the leader. The leader? Yeah. The leader. The leader is not recognizing.

00:09:26:05 - 00:09:48:19
Unknown
You are not being recognized when you should be, and Achilles should be, because he is the greatest of all time. Yeah. And so that's that's the beginning. And I just kind of introspect and think back to myself, okay, when have I felt like I wasn't appreciated? Yeah. Oh man. And then you're like, okay, dang it. I've been like Achilles too much.

00:09:48:21 - 00:10:08:22
Unknown
And and Achilles takes it too extremely. He says, you know what? I'm if you guys if he if if this leader doesn't appreciate me, let me show you how much of value I am to your army and let me get out of the war, send my tent, see my tent? He shrugs. And then, yeah, then you'll see how much you need me.

00:10:08:22 - 00:10:27:08
Unknown
And then the story evolves. And that day they really see how much they need him and how much Agamemnon needs him. And Agamemnon comes to regret a little bit of, oh, man, you know, let's shoot. Maybe I should of not dishonor to this, Odysseus Achilles that way. So that beginning that connection about when have you felt slighted?

00:10:27:10 - 00:10:30:20
Unknown
Slighted about your your,

00:10:30:20 - 00:10:55:03
Unknown
your view of your value to the world? Yeah. Your to your organization, like you said, a job. Yeah, 100%. And, you know, Achilles obviously proves that he was correct in the story. But I think it's an important part of the story that you're saying is it starts with this conflict between two leaders. Now, I thought it's important.

00:10:55:05 - 00:11:01:01
Unknown
You know, maybe we could bring up now the idea of that I had I thought

00:11:01:01 - 00:11:19:21
Unknown
of spoiling or not spoiling because to me, that is why it needs to be spoiled and why this work and really, the whole epic cycle of the Trojan War cycle needs to be known to the reader, especially today, before they approach it.

00:11:19:23 - 00:11:36:05
Unknown
Otherwise it's too overwhelming. It busts the crow as it were. It's brought the mind of have too many things. There are readers trying to understand about this very foreign world. So to have a framework of grappling in my mind,

00:11:36:05 - 00:11:55:08
Unknown
not to mention Homer's artifice, like what you're mentioning about there's unity there. Like he's doing that in a world where everyone knows these stories, and then he's and I think that's what allows him to have the idea and a sense of, I'm just going to focus on a few days.

00:11:55:08 - 00:12:32:04
Unknown
A few weeks, I think is a few days, a few days at toward the end, but not the complete end of this ten year war. So, you know, and that's an important lesson for us as people who are so inundated with stories today that we don't have any conception that stories were invented, like we take it for granted, but stories and structures and the way that our whole mind, I think, operates today in how we think of unity and story starts here in a sense like that's why it's the beginning of the canon.

00:12:32:06 - 00:12:51:21
Unknown
And I, you know, there's other cultures and I don't want to I'm not an expert in other cultures, but when I've read some other cultures, like they will have stories, but they tend to have no unity, they tend to meander. It's just a bunch of anecdotes. And it's like, this is a really important invention in the history of the human mind of creating the story.

00:12:51:23 - 00:13:01:04
Unknown
And I think you need to have spoiled the whole thing so you could get an appreciation of that and other things like what you just said about the,

00:13:01:04 - 00:13:13:18
Unknown
the story of Achilles and Agamemnon, because you need to understand everybody who listened to the story in ancient times knew who Achilles was, the greatest warrior. I mean, he's like Superman in a sense.

00:13:13:18 - 00:13:31:01
Unknown
He's like the Hercules of this, of this cycle, and he's the greatest warrior. And then the Agamemnon right off the bat, the opening lines, I'm taking your woman from you, which is the worst that you know, the woman that you conquered, this, this tribe. I'm taking your prize.

00:13:31:01 - 00:13:35:13
Unknown
Because I can essentially. So what do you think about spoil?

00:13:35:13 - 00:13:56:13
Unknown
Not spoil. Okay, so I definitely agree that having some background information is very important, but I'll dispute one thing that you said. You said everybody in ancient Greece knew who these knew. The story of the Iliad before they listened to it. Okay. Not the person who for the first time hears it, not for the child for the first time hears it.

00:13:56:15 - 00:14:09:20
Unknown
I've read the Iliad many times. A lot of my students also have know the story of the Trojan War. Know that the Achilles dies. Most of our audience probably knows the story. And so we can go into,

00:14:09:20 - 00:14:18:13
Unknown
the Iliad and and as you mentioned, appreciate what choices Homer is making about the story that he wants to tell within the broader story.

00:14:18:15 - 00:14:38:15
Unknown
But I get a lot of I get a lot of juice from not knowing. I get a lot of juice from the Netflix show that stops and leaves me wanting more. I get a lot of juice for for going forward and for being excited about reading the story by keeping certain things. So if I'm teaching the Iliad, I'm not going to say, all right, everybody, let's read the Iliad.

00:14:38:17 - 00:14:58:18
Unknown
No, we got to have you got to know who Achilles first is at the beginning. You got to know this. You got to have the background leading up to this. You got to know what it was going on, why they're fighting the Trojan War. Because all that is precision, most knowledge when you get there. But there are a couple questions that that come to mind that I when I was rereading it, I, I'd forgotten a bit.

00:14:58:18 - 00:15:19:15
Unknown
I was like excited to know, like, all right, Achilles gets angry. What's going to stop him from getting angry? What's going to alleviate that anger? And and if you don't know the answer to that, that makes it compelling. He's really angry. What's going to get him back to the battlefield? And so that becomes something that you're looking forward to.

00:15:19:17 - 00:15:23:20
Unknown
And as you're going through, it's like, okay, all right, well, the

00:15:23:20 - 00:15:28:13
Unknown
Agamemnon's regretting the fighting because they're getting their butt kicked. And so he sends a bunch of,

00:15:28:13 - 00:15:39:13
Unknown
an embassy, Odysseus and Ajax, and we offer him so much wealth, gives him price, see us back along with all these other women. You get so much. And Achilles. And I'm waiting right there.

00:15:39:17 - 00:16:00:24
Unknown
Is he going to accept or refuse that? And so, for that moment of tension to keep the tension, I don't want to tell the whole story and summarize the whole story beforehand. I want to give some scaffolding, but not quite every detail that you have questions about as you're going forward. Yeah. So I would agree with that. I wouldn't give every detail.

00:16:00:24 - 00:16:20:04
Unknown
Yeah. I think what I mean, the I just mean the Trojan War cycle. So you know, the, the, the apple of discord with Paris to tell that you got it. You got that got him. Because that's the, that's, that's what leads up to. Yeah. So I guess that's what I mean by spoiling us. Like there's that but I would also I so I wouldn't give the details.

00:16:20:05 - 00:16:37:20
Unknown
I would just say, you know, I have like a whole I don't have it off the top of my head, but I have like a, a list of things of major events that we go through. When I go through this and teach this, that includes what happens, some of what happens in the Iliad, some major things like, and you hear, I'm going to spoil something.

00:16:37:22 - 00:16:40:16
Unknown
Hector dies. Right. So and then and then,

00:16:40:16 - 00:16:56:04
Unknown
and then that Achilles dies as part of the Trojan War cycle. And I think what I agree with you is saying is maybe don't even say when and how that happens, because that could be part of the spread, because like, the point of this is, you know, when does the Trojan horse that are the Trojan horse happen?

00:16:56:04 - 00:17:03:21
Unknown
When you know, who does that? How do they do it? Where is it said, how do that's I think other interesting questions we could have.

00:17:03:21 - 00:17:09:07
Unknown
And that's helpful for how do we get those stories and I do I just had to say one thing.

00:17:09:07 - 00:17:32:03
Unknown
Well, I will have to say I don't 100% agree with you is and how important this is, I don't know, but I don't actually agree that kids in ancient Greek would not have known that ahead of time, because it's if you look at the artwork of their era, the pottery, like it's this is like the mother's milk thing is like they are being told these stories around the fireplace

00:17:32:05 - 00:17:42:04
Unknown
all the time. I mean, this is this is ubiquitous. And then when you as a depending on the era, you might get a reading from a great reader,

00:17:42:04 - 00:17:46:08
Unknown
a great poet over a course of the day, I write a particular work. Yeah.

00:17:46:08 - 00:17:51:15
Unknown
But the kids, I think I read, if they were there, I don't even know if they would, they would have known all these stories, all the stories at home.

00:17:51:15 - 00:17:54:23
Unknown
Or we'll put quote unquote Homer and they're,

00:17:54:23 - 00:18:28:00
Unknown
they are they are crafted out of the, the mythology that's already present. And that's part of the grandma and grandpa. Yeah, yeah. So that that is part of but I take your points and I, you know, I'll even try to adjust a little bit on my own sake because I think I'll probably lean towards spoiling more than I should, but I think what you're saying is right about there's certain elements within it in moments like that can be powerful if allowed to read, as long as you have the framework around it so you know what's going on.

00:18:28:02 - 00:18:36:17
Unknown
So that being said, we're spoiling this, right? Yeah, we're spoiling stuff. If you haven't read it, it's going to be okay. I mean, I already said Hector's dad. If you didn't know that he dies.

00:18:36:17 - 00:18:43:14
Unknown
And that's just part of it. So that is Achilles die? I don't know, maybe I won't spoil that one. I mean, we all know he dies, obviously.

00:18:43:14 - 00:19:08:16
Unknown
I mean, they're all dead now here. So. Yeah, I had a big challenge with my students at the very end. I was asking myself, how much do I want to guide them with the ending? Because several students are like, oh, I can't wait for the Trojan Horse to come. Yeah. And so I decided to to just let them kind of experience it, to have it be a little bit of like, oh, Homer didn't even include the Trojan horse.

00:19:08:16 - 00:19:30:05
Unknown
What does that mean? To have that kind of disappointment and confusion, for them to see that Homer was doing something very different than telling a story that has been narrated over and over again, that he's focusing on one thing. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. And in a first introduction, and for high school, you know, junior high, high school, when you're introducing this, my view is give them the whole thing.

00:19:30:10 - 00:19:44:17
Unknown
Let them experience it for the first time. Because a lot of those questions are more advanced. Questions like, how do we know about the you know, so for instance, there's a scholarly question, did Homer have a conception of Achilles heel?

00:19:44:17 - 00:20:00:19
Unknown
And and the answer I've read is no. That that comes later this year. Yeah, yeah. And so if you guys know that and so like that, that's an important and like actually one scholar I just have to say this because I love this like one scholar put it, it's kind of ridiculous traditionally.

00:20:00:19 - 00:20:06:20
Unknown
And like the way that Homer puts it because he puts so much emphasis on armor. So if,

00:20:06:20 - 00:20:17:23
Unknown
like, why wouldn't Achilles just put armor in his heel or something? Something like that. Right. And it's like, you know, so it's but again, the Achilles heel thing, it's probably not even a tradition known to Homer when he's writing this.

00:20:18:00 - 00:20:34:22
Unknown
It comes later. So there's a question of, well, what are the mythology? Because a lot of it is just different people throughout hundreds of years coming up. Oh, you want to get into the whole Homer question? Sure. We could bring that, right? I mean, I prefer this year. What do you like about the Iliad in our time? Yeah.

00:20:34:22 - 00:20:38:01
Unknown
I was like a maybe if we have a little bit time, it comes up. Yeah, yeah.

00:20:38:01 - 00:20:51:01
Unknown
I like I like thinking of Homer. He he's, I think it I, I like to think of that. Maybe there's adjustments over time and people kind of adapted it, but I like to take it. Okay. Here we have one story. We're going to treat it as if it's one whole.

00:20:51:03 - 00:20:58:00
Unknown
Yeah. But if it makes sense. Yeah I agree with that basically. And I think there was I think there probably was a homer,

00:20:58:00 - 00:21:05:00
Unknown
some sort just a great you have a poet that that put it to Homer and yeah, the ancient Greek Bible.

00:21:05:00 - 00:21:12:08
Unknown
So, so my, my connection to it is what you want. Yeah. I'd love to hear your connections and then maybe your favorite parts and favorite characters and,

00:21:13:06 - 00:21:33:17
Unknown
So. Well, my connection is to when I was, you know, told the story a million times on this channel, you know, like 9 or 10 years old, I was told, you know, I was not good at anything in school, as good at baseball and in school, though I was good at nothing. And they told me I was. I scored higher in reading comprehension and that's it.

00:21:33:17 - 00:21:47:10
Unknown
So math, science, anything else? I was not good. And but but this I think I was like as a ten year old is like oh okay. What does that mean? And so I asked, okay, if I'm a you know, I took that as I'm good reader. So I asked my teacher at the time was the greatest book I ever read written.

00:21:47:12 - 00:21:48:03
Unknown
And

00:21:48:03 - 00:21:55:00
Unknown
she said the Iliad. So I went out and I made my parents buy the Iliad, and it was just some random book on,

00:21:55:00 - 00:22:09:24
Unknown
a Barnes and Noble or I think it was actually, I don't know, some it wasn't Barnes Noble at the time or something else, but and so I went home and I started reading it, and I remember crying through a lot of it because I didn't understand a word of it.

00:22:10:01 - 00:22:16:12
Unknown
And I was like, I'm not even good at this. Oh. So I was like, oh my God, what am I good at? And, you know,

00:22:16:12 - 00:22:35:05
Unknown
it's taken me a long time, but it's part of what's inspired me to do troubadour, to do troubadour magazine, to do translations of it and things like that is to make it accessible for a precocious reader who wants to experience it and understand it, because there's a lot of barriers that are in the way.

00:22:35:07 - 00:22:43:15
Unknown
And if we have time. I brought several translations, very famous translations, and then one, a little one that I did to kind of show,

00:22:43:15 - 00:22:57:24
Unknown
so this and kind of show what's, what's possible. And. Okay, so then, Kirk, when did you stop crying and start enjoying? I think after I read Ayn Rand, actually, and got back into the classics.

00:22:57:24 - 00:23:07:03
Unknown
So probably 1920, okay, as I start, I started giving the classics in 20. Boy, you've been around for. Yeah, 19 or 20 years old. So I'm like, okay. Yeah.

00:23:07:03 - 00:23:09:04
Unknown
Somewhere in that realm. And,

00:23:09:04 - 00:23:15:23
Unknown
yeah. So I started reading like llamas after Atlas Shrugged and some of these books, and then I was like, oh, I'm going to try the Iliad again.

00:23:15:23 - 00:23:19:03
Unknown
I tried a version. I was like, oh, I get this now. I have a,

00:23:19:03 - 00:23:34:12
Unknown
and then I read another and another, and I've read several versions over the years. So. And the story, what hooks you or their characters that hook you or they're moments that hook you or they're like, I described, okay, I, I empathize with Achilles and can think of myself in his place.

00:23:34:14 - 00:23:57:21
Unknown
Are there particular scenes or that when you read it, there's like, oh, okay, this is compelling, or I like this character, or is it the battle scenes? Is it, is it the insults that are flung at each other, or is it the poetry of it? So it's it always depends on the read. You know, this last one I was actually noticing things this last read.

00:23:57:21 - 00:24:15:12
Unknown
I was noticing things about the relationship between Patrick Ellison, Achilles and I didn't. I never realized that Patrick was older than Achilles, and I don't know how many times I, but I was like, oh, I didn't realize that. But he is. And there's a moment where it said, let rip. It says, like, I'm his older and blah. And I was like, I never caught that.

00:24:15:14 - 00:24:32:03
Unknown
In any other reading. But he's actually a few years older. And so it's an interesting dynamic between them about how much they care about each other. But Patrick Ellis's view is he's, you know, his thing is he brings wisdom and Achilles brings the war like he's the warrior.

00:24:32:03 - 00:24:35:16
Unknown
They're both warriors. But Patrick was is obviously the second.

00:24:35:18 - 00:25:04:18
Unknown
And, you know, Patrick was really wants to get back to Achilles to advise him. He's trying to advise him through this tricky situation as you're putting it, especially in his internal situation. So I really like the relationship a lot. I think that's it's not a big part of the book in the sense of a lot of focus. I mean, I should say it is a big part of the book, but it's not a big focus in the in certain regards, like get them interacting with each other.

00:25:04:20 - 00:25:07:10
Unknown
So that's one. Yeah. Homer need an editor.

00:25:07:10 - 00:25:18:06
Unknown
You're spending books. He was having these battles. But your central story is about this relationship between Achilles and Patrick. Can we have more screen time with that? And I totally agree with you. I love that relationship.

00:25:18:06 - 00:25:24:11
Unknown
And the difference between the two characters, sometimes a lot of these characters kind of blend into each other.

00:25:24:13 - 00:25:43:16
Unknown
Okay, here's another hulking guy who likes to fight and like and sometimes deals with cowardice and has to be roused up. And another one and another one and another one and and and reading the Iliad. It's last time really got a sense of a difference in personality between Patrick Ellis and,

00:25:43:16 - 00:25:51:02
Unknown
and Achilles. So. Yeah. Yeah. Patrick Ellis is the one who's like, oh my God, Achilles, because you're sitting out.

00:25:51:02 - 00:26:11:01
Unknown
All the Greeks are being slaughtered by Hector and the Trojans. Oh my gosh. And he's the one that feels sad. Yeah, I, I picked out a scene, kind of made a really quick scene with what Patrick lists. Oh, you just look again. And this is just like an innocuous little scene, but it just captures a difference between Patrick List and Achilles.

00:26:11:03 - 00:26:34:09
Unknown
And this is, Oh, a moment where, oh, did I get it or that? Cut it out. Oh, I don't even have it. No, I lost it. Oh, no no no, it's a no. You got it collated. That's what it is okay. All right. So Patrick List is sent out by Achilles to kind of find out. Hey, can you can you find out what's going on with everybody?

00:26:34:11 - 00:26:45:23
Unknown
And whether or not the Trojans are really winning. Like, I asked my mom to try to get Zeus to do and and Patrick goes, comes by. He's he's like, he's got to

00:26:45:23 - 00:26:52:19
Unknown
get the word back to Achilles and he's running back to the Achilles tent. And then he stops and he sees,

00:26:52:19 - 00:26:55:01
Unknown
one of these Greeks who's wounded Europeans.

00:26:55:05 - 00:27:11:17
Unknown
I'm going to I'm butchering pronunciations left. And pronunciation is a difficult one with this. Yeah. Okay. So here's I'm going to read the scene. And this is the this is the quality that I think really comes through for Patrick is that Achilles doesn't have. Yeah. So and Patrick was set to replace

00:27:11:17 - 00:27:13:04
Unknown
how did we get in such a position.

00:27:13:04 - 00:27:34:24
Unknown
What what should we do? I've been sent to deliver an urgent message from Nestor, our eminent counselor to Achilles. Still, I won't abandon you here in your trouble. With these words, he grasped his comrade around the waist and walked him back to his hut. His comrade, your place is wounded. And when his attendants saw him, he spread some oxides for him on the ground.

00:27:34:24 - 00:27:57:14
Unknown
And Patrick had him lie down, and with a sharp knife he cut the arrowhead out of his thigh, and he washed off the blood with warm water, and taking a bitter root, he crushed it between his hands, and then he applied it to the gashed flesh, and it took away all of the pain and the wound began to dry up and the blood stopped flowing.

00:27:57:16 - 00:28:22:08
Unknown
Yeah. He's more the healer. Totally. Yeah. He is, he's got like concern for others. Achilles is like I don't care that they're dying out there. I want them to die this spring. I want to show Agamemnon how they screwed me over. But Patrick claims that's where it leads Patrick less. Yeah, it's the same. Hey, please, Achilles, can I go out there and help them?

00:28:22:10 - 00:28:39:23
Unknown
Can I can I go out there and wear your armor? And and so I our friends are dying. I want to help them. Yeah, I, I don't want to be I don't I don't want to be too harsh on Achilles. I don't quite see his character as he doesn't care.

00:28:39:23 - 00:28:41:16
Unknown
That I don't think that's fair to his kids.

00:28:41:16 - 00:28:50:20
Unknown
Oh, that's a question I have, that we could maybe talk about. What is the Achilles hierarchy of values? Yeah. So, like, now go ahead, because he's in a really interesting situation.

00:28:50:20 - 00:29:00:17
Unknown
And, you know, his this is part of why I think the, you know, the context is important. This is the origin of war stories. What do we learn in a war story?

00:29:00:17 - 00:29:20:06
Unknown
What's the point of a war story? Depends on the I think the era. Okay. Well if you want to mention something about that I think yeah, I agree with that. But but I think like there's something fundamental about war, which is life and death is on the line. I think that's the fundamental going on. And that's a big part of this book.

00:29:20:08 - 00:29:25:17
Unknown
And really so there's a couple things going on it. It's, you know, it's easy to say,

00:29:25:17 - 00:29:37:20
Unknown
sure. Achilles is just upset that he was wronged in some way, but we have to go back to the fact about Achilles to defend him, that he knows he's going to die.

00:29:37:20 - 00:29:46:01
Unknown
If he stays here. And so that that this is he this puts him in a category of hero that's unlike anybody else.

00:29:46:03 - 00:29:59:05
Unknown
Patrick doesn't really know that. And there's actually some moments with Hector if you really are paying attention. And depending on the the translation, some empathize is better than others, where it's like when he's talking to Diana, his wife.

00:29:59:05 - 00:30:00:01
Unknown
No, that's,

00:30:00:01 - 00:30:01:19
Unknown
and drama and drama. Yeah, yeah. Sorry.

00:30:01:19 - 00:30:02:19
Unknown
So this is a son,

00:30:02:19 - 00:30:08:09
Unknown
who gets scared by the plume and his wife, when he talks to his wife, Andromeda.

00:30:08:11 - 00:30:25:16
Unknown
There's moments when he's like, I think I'm going to die. This guy is going to kill me. He's way better than me. And then there's moments where he's he's basically, yeah, I think I could do this. All right. Which is the state of any human in a war. And it's been pointed out that Hector is the most human like character in the story.

00:30:25:16 - 00:30:36:10
Unknown
And I think that's true in the sense of he's, you know, you see his family life, you see his brother, he has problems with his brother, he has problems with his dad. There's a general that's not listening to the the right kind of,

00:30:36:10 - 00:30:42:24
Unknown
and, you know, omens and there's all these types of complications that Hector has. And Hector,

00:30:42:24 - 00:30:48:09
Unknown
is trying to navigate this and lead his people to not be slaughtered by this invading army.

00:30:48:09 - 00:31:04:16
Unknown
And try to take this all on. And so you feel real sympathy for him. And, and I want to, you know, that's something to talk about more about, like, what was Homer's who's the Greeks aim at writing this, right. Like, you feel real sympathy for the enemy. Yeah, yeah. The interesting thing, this is not the Star Wars with rebels versus.

00:31:04:16 - 00:31:13:11
Unknown
Yeah. No. And I love it about that's another thing I love about it is, you know, it's one of the first times you get that in literature I think. So wait, wait, what about Achilles? What's the,

00:31:13:11 - 00:31:21:08
Unknown
Why why do we. So give a break? So Achilles has is in a position that's very unlike any other person in the like.

00:31:21:08 - 00:31:45:17
Unknown
Hector. Unlike Hector. So Hector is a normal person who has this. I might die, I might not. That that's how it's. That's how every human is. Like Achilles knows he's going to. He will definitely die if he stays there. And what I the thing that I love the most about this is I truly believe from the literature I've read and studied about, that.

00:31:45:17 - 00:31:54:06
Unknown
This is the first time in the history of the world when a character stands up and says, no, I want to live. It's my life.

00:31:54:06 - 00:32:05:09
Unknown
You know? And he says, for nothing, as I now see it equals the value of life, of my life, the wealth, the wife that for me. And he says this. And early on there's a famous quote where he says, and,

00:32:05:09 - 00:32:05:18
Unknown
you know,

00:32:05:18 - 00:32:08:12
Unknown
no Trojan ever did anything wrong to me.

00:32:08:14 - 00:32:31:00
Unknown
And it's like, it's a me thing. And it's really, to me, the beginnings, the, the initial spark of the West and the individuality that I think is a characteristic of the West. Is it fully fleshed out? Of course not. But it's just a little inkling of like he starts to think, look, I'm fighting. I'm the best of these guys.

00:32:31:00 - 00:32:43:07
Unknown
I'm the reason they're winning and they're just arbitrarily going to. And that's the thing. It's it's arbitrary taking away of my whole purpose. Because here's the thing. The the last thing I'll say on this is the, the,

00:32:43:07 - 00:32:50:16
Unknown
the omen. He has the prophecy about his death. Yeah. Is that it's this idea of,

00:32:50:16 - 00:32:53:10
Unknown
the Greek term of I think it's close and time I.

00:32:53:11 - 00:33:17:14
Unknown
Which means glory and honor. Like what people will say about you after you're dead. How that culture represented that. And this is important to understanding the course is the stuff you get when you when you add, when you conquer something. Who gets the most stuff? The one with the most glory. So when you when you're in that situation, in that culture and then all of a sudden you learn,

00:33:17:14 - 00:33:19:09
Unknown
you can just take away whatever, whatever he wants.

00:33:19:15 - 00:33:31:04
Unknown
It's like, well, I'm going to die for this thing which is glory, and it's just going to be able to take it away. So I'm not going to do that. So I have a lot more sympathy for Achilles in that sense.

00:33:31:04 - 00:33:37:23
Unknown
And he does in the embassy scene when Ajax talks to him and says, what about the soldiers?

00:33:38:00 - 00:33:59:24
Unknown
He's like, that's when he says, okay, you know what? If they come to the ships, they come to the black ships. I will get involved. So he says that at that point. So it's when they move forward and he's like, I'm not going to help you conquer anybody else. I'm done. Right. And I think that's fair. Like then if you if like I don't think it's him not caring is my argument.

00:34:00:01 - 00:34:09:19
Unknown
Like it's him saying I'm not going to kill for you anymore. Right. If I'm not going to get what I want, I'm not going to kill for you because it's my life, and I, I when I started learning that,

00:34:09:19 - 00:34:13:13
Unknown
I just was like, I'm more in love with this than ever.

00:34:13:13 - 00:34:18:00
Unknown
I it's the thing for me that is like a symbol of what you're talking about.

00:34:18:00 - 00:34:24:23
Unknown
Has Achilles love of life is actually the shield that,

00:34:24:23 - 00:34:36:14
Unknown
that is made. So one thing you're mentioning, Achilles is not in this fight for Agamemnon, for his leader. And he's not in this fight for a greater cause, like for the,

00:34:36:14 - 00:34:45:04
Unknown
for a religious cause or for nationalism. No, he's in a fight for for himself,

00:34:45:04 - 00:34:46:18
Unknown
for his happiness,

00:34:46:18 - 00:34:52:01
Unknown
for whatever he can get from his glory and glory or anything like that.

00:34:52:03 - 00:35:01:23
Unknown
And and that kind of. And it weighs with him, okay? He knows he's going to die, but I get glory. But at the same time, you know what? The benefit of sitting out,

00:35:01:23 - 00:35:13:19
Unknown
I'll get to go back home and kind of be happy and live nice. And I like that idea. And when he eventually comes back in the battle and we talk about why he comes back into the battle,

00:35:13:19 - 00:35:21:05
Unknown
and he doesn't have his armor anymore, and his mom gets the Festus to make some armor and make a shield.

00:35:21:07 - 00:35:31:19
Unknown
What captivated me about the shield, and it goes on long when this description, it's not a symbol for certain cause. Like the first thing I think of. Ask anybody when you think of,

00:35:31:19 - 00:35:41:02
Unknown
an emblem on a shield, the first thing I think of is like one of those Crusader crosses, the red crosses, or maybe some lions that show you, like, you know, King of England or something like that.

00:35:41:02 - 00:35:45:08
Unknown
Arthurian type of stuff. No. The kind of thing that's here.

00:35:45:08 - 00:36:04:20
Unknown
I'll share my screen here just to show just this image. Having the bank. And it's not a great image, but what you have here is a bunch of scenes of kind of daily city life and daily country life. And I think there are a couple people that are like arguing about in a court and,

00:36:04:20 - 00:36:05:13
Unknown
in a,

00:36:05:13 - 00:36:16:06
Unknown
in a town square, there's a little parade of people with their oxen, all this kind of individual little scenes of everyday life.

00:36:16:08 - 00:36:37:06
Unknown
And that's the the symbolic emblem on this fighting gear. So the, the version I have that, that I teach off is every you. Yeah. And he has it broken down the shield in these little subsections and I won't read them all but just to kind of build a like yeah there's the like and it's just and then you read the description right.

00:36:37:06 - 00:37:00:06
Unknown
It's the shield constellations. There's marriage is a whole thing about marriage. There's a whole thing about siege and ambush, plowing, reaping grape harvest, cattle herding, sheep flocks, things like that. So you like you're like. You're saying it's the whole life, death of a civilization. In a sense. It's the whole. It's all of civilization represents all of life. The cycle.

00:37:00:06 - 00:37:21:03
Unknown
Civilization. Yeah, yeah. On a shield. And like what that represents the egg, the protector. Right. And that, I think, is really telling of what this is all about. And, and I think that's part of the structure of the whole story, in a sense. And my example for that is in the whole theme. And my example for that is, is going back to your kill of the week.

00:37:21:03 - 00:37:41:06
Unknown
So I think we should do it. Kill of the week. As you put I love the kill of the week. Okay. And the reason I say, I mean, we could, we could go, like, top 20 kills of the week each and have plenty to go around. Well, so, I mean, that's war's horrible or worse. Yeah. And the Iliad, I mean, people die.

00:37:41:08 - 00:38:08:07
Unknown
Yeah. And it was it's been pointed out that the percentage of walking wounds is really small. So in other there are some wounds that happen, but the vast majority of interactions death like if you encounter somebody in this. Yeah. Yeah. And that's not the reality of war. The reality was that it's mostly wounds and that that was a people argue and I it makes sense to me that this is a,

00:38:08:07 - 00:38:18:06
Unknown
this like a part of the point that Homer's trying to make about death is he's not interested in wounded people much, but the wounded people are, you know, the wounded.

00:38:18:06 - 00:38:24:22
Unknown
Then they're back in the fight. This this is drama. This is life and death drama. So you got to kill the weak. You got to get the weak. Okay? Yeah.

00:38:24:22 - 00:38:34:12
Unknown
So this is Ajax. Kill some same USS Moses. I don't know how to pronounce a lot of these, either. This is for me. On the oath is broken and battle is joined.

00:38:34:14 - 00:38:39:12
Unknown
I don't remember. This is early on. Yeah, I think I got this to go ahead. Yeah. So it's,

00:38:39:12 - 00:38:57:03
Unknown
Then. Ajax, son of Telamon, hit Endymion, son. So, Moises, an unmarried young man at the prime of his youth, his mother bore him by the banks of the river. Similarly, when she was returning from Mount Ida, where her father and mother had taken her to sea to their sheep, so they called him some choices.

00:38:57:05 - 00:39:10:01
Unknown
His life was too short to repay the parents for their loving care, and it for it ended when he met the spear of great hearted Ajax. So I'm going. I'm going to skip some because it's a long section. And then, you know, Ajax slaughtered,

00:39:10:01 - 00:39:16:05
Unknown
Adam and Timmy and son some. And what? What? I tended to notice.

00:39:16:05 - 00:39:18:04
Unknown
Actually, no, I'll say this after you go first.

00:39:18:08 - 00:39:39:17
Unknown
What did you did you skip the part about the gruesome details? Because that's especially what I want to hear. Okay, so as the young man advanced among the front ranks, Ajax hit him in the chest by the right nipple. The bronze spear went clean through his shoulder, and he crashed to the ground in the dust like a poplar, which grows in the hollow of a great water meadow, its trunk trimmed and the branches sprouting out at the top.

00:39:39:19 - 00:40:02:03
Unknown
A chariot maker cuts it down with his gleaming ax to make the wheel rims of a beautiful chariot, but he leaves it now to light and season on the bank. So Ajax slaughtered Endymion, son. Okay, Moises. Yeah. So the three parts of that one. Okay. I've never heard of this symbiosis guy, but he gets a backstory and everybody gets a backstory, and everybody is.

00:40:02:05 - 00:40:16:03
Unknown
Even if it's sexual here, even if it's like, this guy was really handsome. Yeah, but because of that, he couldn't fight. And so everybody gets a little bit of a backstory. There are no insignificant soldiers. Yeah. And it's not just, you know,

00:40:16:03 - 00:40:23:03
Unknown
you know, faceless in the same uniform, people going into battle. Well, not in the story, but there are in the story.

00:40:23:03 - 00:40:44:19
Unknown
Yeah, there are those. But when we're when we're dealing with the fighting. No, this is the second thing is the kill is really visceral. And I'm going to read a couple here that are absolutely gross, but you said like, right nipple like entering and. Yeah, I mean, there is if you try to picture that, you're going to,

00:40:44:19 - 00:40:45:10
Unknown
it's gross.

00:40:45:11 - 00:41:00:11
Unknown
Yeah, it's it's horrific reality. And it's funny how Homer can get that visceral. I was like, whoa, Homer, I thought we were just kind of lifting up here and, you know, kind of stratified, in 19th century language from translations. No.

00:41:00:11 - 00:41:06:11
Unknown
And then the third thing here is the metaphors. What is he like, this poplar that falls.

00:41:06:11 - 00:41:09:24
Unknown
And it's not just a popular. It falls, but it's a popular it falls. It's going to be used to,

00:41:09:24 - 00:41:10:11
Unknown
make,

00:41:10:11 - 00:41:21:18
Unknown
a carriage by a wheel or somebody. Yeah. An extended metaphor to for you to visualize epic. What's called. You got it. So here, I'll read one here.

00:41:21:18 - 00:41:25:04
Unknown
Let me pick I love that that's, All right.

00:41:25:04 - 00:41:28:12
Unknown
This one kind of combines those three elements to. Yeah. All right.

00:41:28:12 - 00:41:55:19
Unknown
Oh, I don't I don't remember who the he is. He did not hit him. But it's throw was not wasted. The huge stone flew on and hit Symbionese, a bastard son of King Priam who is holding the horse's reins. This huge stone hit him between the eyes and smashed through his brows and shattered his skull, and his eyeballs fell on the ground in front of his feet, backward.

00:41:55:19 - 00:42:19:15
Unknown
He pitched from the blow, and he fell like a diver over the chariots rail. And the life left his bones. Oh, this is Patrick, actually. Then Patrick, Lord Patrick, bless you, uttered these mocking words. So this is Patrick was wearing Achilles armor, pretending to be Achilles, beating up on the Trojans. And I like these mocking words as so many mocking words.

00:42:19:17 - 00:42:42:11
Unknown
My, what a nimble acrobat this man is. I am sure that he would be skillful fishing for oysters. He could feed many people with all the oysters he found when he dived from his fishing post boat, even in stormy weather. To judge by this easy summer salt onto the plain. I never knew that the Trojans were such good divers.

00:42:42:11 - 00:42:53:17
Unknown
He's mocking the way he killed this man who, like, tumbled over from his chariot. Now, the one part that's not there is the, you know, a little bit of background from for Symbionese, but it probably was some there before. There might have been

00:42:53:17 - 00:42:55:10
Unknown
the ice balls falling out.

00:42:55:10 - 00:43:01:20
Unknown
I mean, everywhere you can die in this war. You can explain basically pretty much every way that's possible.

00:43:01:20 - 00:43:18:00
Unknown
Right? Crossing, smashing through faces and skulls and pelvises and groins. A lot of drawing. I like it there. And it's just like, that's sober. And I think it's just thinking about the armor structure. I think that's probably because there's no armor down that area.

00:43:18:00 - 00:43:31:05
Unknown
Well, yeah. And but I think what you're saying a like the, the point of this when people read it for the first time and this is how I usually bring it up to them, is I'll have them read a couple of them, we'll talk about it.

00:43:31:07 - 00:43:49:11
Unknown
And, you know, well, they always think when I say, like, what? What do you think about the deaths? They always talk about the brutality, but then it's really important, like you're pointing out to really see Homer as an artist is conveying something really interesting with all of these, which is the,

00:43:49:11 - 00:43:50:04
Unknown
life,

00:43:50:04 - 00:43:54:05
Unknown
the birth, life and death of someone like, this whole cycle.

00:43:54:07 - 00:44:18:10
Unknown
Like, he's focused on the entire cycle. Whatever he talks about their death is not just it's not brutality for brutality sake. There's a point to it, in a sense. And part of what I think it's a lot of what it adds up to, is this deeper theme of the value of life, right? And the like, in order to really think about and understand the value of life, according to Homer.

00:44:18:10 - 00:44:35:18
Unknown
And I think there's some truth to this. It's to know about that ending is to know the death that it's going to happen. And then you could tell this story about their entire life, in a sense. And that's what he's doing. And, you know, there's a question of like, well, who's it is the Iliad, the story of anybody's life and who is it?

00:44:35:20 - 00:44:36:08
Unknown
And,

00:44:36:08 - 00:44:45:12
Unknown
because who's the who's the main person is and some people have asked, you know, some people said maybe not even Achilles. Maybe it's oh, I disagree with that. I, I don't know.

00:44:45:12 - 00:44:54:05
Unknown
So, so I, I agree that there's this and the underlying idea here is that life is of value,

00:44:54:05 - 00:44:58:21
Unknown
to, to everybody, even some Joe Schmo who's going to get killed.

00:44:59:02 - 00:45:01:04
Unknown
We get two words about how he,

00:45:01:04 - 00:45:04:15
Unknown
had 50 sheep back home on his little island and married this girl.

00:45:04:15 - 00:45:16:12
Unknown
So everybody has this kind of life cycle, this part that leads up to their death. Now, the question I posed earlier for me, a plot question, what's going to make Achilles,

00:45:16:12 - 00:45:21:05
Unknown
quell his anger towards Agamemnon and get him to go back out to fight.

00:45:21:07 - 00:45:25:22
Unknown
And that is, as you know, Patrick is killed by Hector.

00:45:25:22 - 00:45:42:10
Unknown
And when patch is killed by Hector, the anger that comes from that super seeds, the anger that he had towards Agamemnon. Like all right I'm back and I'm back. And not because I'm

00:45:42:10 - 00:45:59:12
Unknown
Agamemnon persuaded me to go back in with all those gifts that I rejected, but because now I, I have something that matters more to me than that dishonoring I had my love for Patrick less.

00:45:59:16 - 00:46:05:05
Unknown
Yeah. Now it's personal and it's so personal. And you're talking about,

00:46:05:05 - 00:46:34:16
Unknown
translations before and different translations. That measure, just like these are just a sentence long between two different ones, two different translations, two different translations. So I've been referring to the Stephen Mitchell translation. Yeah. And I, I've read the Robert Faisal's translation before, and the Stephen Mitchell translation is simpler, but sometimes our details are left out, and the Robert Segal's translation is a little bit more complex, but in a good way, but oddly structured.

00:46:34:16 - 00:46:43:22
Unknown
But there may be more details. So the first I'm going to read the Stephen Mitchell translation, and this is when Achilles finds out that Patrick is dead and Antiochus has come to tell him,

00:46:43:22 - 00:46:54:05
Unknown
here it goes, just two lines and, and and until it was cried out and wept, holding Achilles hands as a great man groan softly. Okay.

00:46:54:07 - 00:47:16:03
Unknown
Touching moment. He's holding Achilles hands. Now here's Robert Siegel's translation, and listen to what has been left out of the Stephen Mitchell that shows how anguished Achilles is until a kiss, kneeling near, weeping uncontrollably, clutched Achilles hands as he wept his proud heart out for fear he would slash his throat with an iron blade.

00:47:16:03 - 00:47:18:02
Unknown
Let's read the first one real quick again.

00:47:18:04 - 00:47:34:21
Unknown
The first one is simply an in to kill kiss cried out and wept, holding Achilles hands as a great man groaned softly. Okay, so this is when until Lucas is trying to beg for his life. No, wait. When is this? This is until Lucas bringing the news that Patrick Kiss is dead. Oh, okay. Okay. And then the first one.

00:47:34:21 - 00:47:49:04
Unknown
He's, like, reassuring. And the first translation is like, let me hold your hands, Achilles. Because you. I know how sad you are. And the second translation, it's like, let me hold your hands, Achilles, because I know that if I don't hold pin your hands down, you're going to take your own life.

00:47:49:04 - 00:47:57:22
Unknown
Yeah. So I mean, so one of the joys of the Iliad and I think a lot of classical works is the

00:47:57:22 - 00:48:06:03
Unknown
the rereading of different translations and I think because yeah, every translate is going to emphasize different things for different reasons.

00:48:06:05 - 00:48:17:03
Unknown
And that's part of the joy of it in a sense. Now you could obviously go back and read, you could learn ancient Greek and you can read that. I think it's a lot of work just to read a book.

00:48:17:03 - 00:48:34:14
Unknown
So if you're not going to be a scholar, I don't think that's a good idea. But I actually find joy in finding these different connections and different things that people focus on and kind of going through the process a little bit myself has been really interesting to see things that I didn't notice that, you know, weren't as emphasized.

00:48:34:14 - 00:48:46:24
Unknown
For whatever reason. I can't wait until you do learn ancient Greek, and I don't think I'm going to do that. I just don't know that there's the the value in it career wise. Maybe when I'm old or something and I'm like, I'm nothing else to do or something like,

00:48:46:24 - 00:48:49:06
Unknown
but it's, it's, you know,

00:48:49:06 - 00:48:54:10
Unknown
anyway, so I think there's that's part of the joy is reading multiple translations throughout the years.

00:48:54:12 - 00:49:10:05
Unknown
You know, read it in ten years, read another version. It's not like you have to read it all the time, but, well, listen to it because you have a better handle on it. Once you've read it a couple times, you can now listen to it in the background or something. And I like I like listening and reading at the same time.

00:49:10:05 - 00:49:13:24
Unknown
That's really helpful. That's so. But so that that the moment where,

00:49:13:24 - 00:49:21:15
Unknown
until the kiss is holding down the hands in order to prevent him from committing suicide. That's one of my highlights. That's the anguish of a lover who's lost their beloved.

00:49:21:15 - 00:49:27:02
Unknown
And now they're going to do something about it. And. And I mentioned Achilles hierarchy of values.

00:49:27:04 - 00:49:31:07
Unknown
His love of Patrick List is higher than, you know.

00:49:31:07 - 00:49:37:06
Unknown
Feeling maybe his dishonor here or his honor that matters to him more now.

00:49:37:06 - 00:49:47:23
Unknown
That was a highlight for me. But I'm curious, are there so far as we're going through the story, any particular moments that are meaningful to you or that you really like or that's come to you like, oh yes, I like that moment.

00:49:48:00 - 00:50:06:24
Unknown
Well, there's a moment that, always touched me partly because of a poem written in World War One called I saw a man This Morning by Patrick Shaw. And it's when Achilles runs out naked, essentially, or unarmored.

00:50:06:24 - 00:50:16:01
Unknown
And he, he's, you know, he's like his Patrick has been killed. He wants to get in the fight. He wants to stop the the Greeks are being pushed back.

00:50:16:01 - 00:50:21:15
Unknown
It's like this chaotic moment. Everything's going wrong. And, you know, Achilles,

00:50:21:15 - 00:50:37:01
Unknown
Achilles mother Thetis says, go run out there and go, you know, brandish your weapon and yell at them. And and he's like, but I don't have any armor on it. And so she says, don't worry about it. I'll be taking cover. And so he goes out there, he screams, right?

00:50:37:05 - 00:50:40:09
Unknown
Shouts in the trench. Yeah. And, and,

00:50:40:09 - 00:50:59:18
Unknown
and it's trenches because they built this trench. And that's why this World War One poem is when you read the book and you listen to this poem, to me it's chilling. What Patrick Shaw is saying in his, I think what he's trying to show you and have you feel and you know, there's like this it's called flame capped Achilles because he's he's the goddess has given him flames.

00:50:59:21 - 00:51:13:17
Unknown
And I just always think of him they're, you know, screaming this, you know, and just the soldiers, they're all stop and they're like, it's time to stop. Night is happening. Let's stop the fighting because of his fury. And it's just,

00:51:13:17 - 00:51:22:19
Unknown
you know, this idea of this man, this this god. He's a god. He's a half god coming and fighting for these men.

00:51:22:21 - 00:51:40:05
Unknown
Right? And he's back in the fray. The Greek men, I mean, the Greek soldiers who are dying, they're losing. They're all going to. Everything's going to fall apart. And you have this God on their side. Now, what? What do you like about that scene? I just like the powering resonance of it. It's just very,

00:51:40:05 - 00:51:42:01
Unknown
You know, I've never been to war, and

00:51:42:01 - 00:51:52:05
Unknown
I've always been fascinated by the war epic and the war story because it always it's just an empathy thing of like, there, but for the grace of God go on.

00:51:52:07 - 00:52:10:20
Unknown
Like, I would have gone to war. My dad went to war like so many men went to war throughout history. Very likely I would have been one based on my social class and things like that. And it's like I it helps me appreciate the fact that I didn't. How horrible it is, and the kinds of feelings that are, that are there of,

00:52:10:20 - 00:52:18:11
Unknown
like this feeling in particular, what I think of as the normal soldier who's like, Thank God, like Achilles.

00:52:18:11 - 00:52:32:19
Unknown
Oh, okay. Okay. So the Greeks are like, oh, finally. Yeah, it's a the cavalry's arrived. Yeah. And it's like, that's, that's and it's that feeling that it always gives me, you know, always makes me feel something very powerful. Okay. So,

00:52:32:19 - 00:52:39:18
Unknown
that's one to remember. Help me to remember here. Because in that scene, because I that scene marks me too, if I'm not mistaken.

00:52:39:20 - 00:53:01:03
Unknown
There is a fight that's going on over the body of Patroklos. Hector is taken the armor, but also the Trojans want to take the body of Patroklos. And Menelaus is doing his best to defend the body so that the Trojans don't take it and mutilate it. And that's the moment that Achilles comes out and yells, he's he's got nothing.

00:53:01:03 - 00:53:25:10
Unknown
He's just it's just Achilles. And he just yells and everybody stops and freezes. And that allows the Greeks to keep the body of Patroklos. Yes. And so it's also kind of this motivational part of, of Achilles, like, no, you're not going to take my lover's body. No. Yeah. I don't know if he was a lover. I know everybody wants to say that, but okay, we'll move on from that.

00:53:25:12 - 00:53:32:17
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. So that's definitely what's out. I mean, there's the fight, but there's more you can think about committing suicide for a friend that dies.

00:53:32:17 - 00:53:44:11
Unknown
Yeah. But like, this is his whole, like, he's been doing this since he was, like, 11 war. And this is the only friend is a partner class. And it's like. It's like with what you see this in war movies, in war stories, where the

00:53:44:11 - 00:53:48:07
Unknown
the band of brothers, the love you have of a brother on the field.

00:53:48:07 - 00:54:07:00
Unknown
And I think that's more akin to what we're seeing. But yeah, and there's more to it because so like that and telecast thing, I've kind of found it here in my version is one of the important things about it is that what Achilles does is he takes a little bit of dirt and he sprinkles it on himself. And that is,

00:54:07:00 - 00:54:07:20
Unknown
that's what you do.

00:54:07:20 - 00:54:31:21
Unknown
Like, Oh, no, the Greek woman I'm taking him and taking. He does that to her brother. That is how you bury somebody? Yeah. He has accepted him. He is dead, but he has died. And like. Oh, that's fascinating. That's something because he knows it's going to go back into the fight. And he knows that. The prophecy says, if I go back, if I'm fighting, I'm going to die.

00:54:32:00 - 00:54:50:22
Unknown
He's accepting his own fate at this moment, that I get chills every time, because that's that's part of what's going on with him, is he's trying to accept, like, his two courses in life are. He's going to go home, marry a woman, live a long life and die, and no one will remember him. And then he says, nope, I'm dying.

00:54:50:22 - 00:55:10:11
Unknown
Now I'm dead and I've died because I need. And I've heard that quote many times that like there's a quote in Band of Brothers, which I love, the show Band of Brothers. And, you know, he's like one of the captains is saying, like, you just don't see how simple it is. You're a soldier. When you accept the that you're already dead, that's when you become a good soldier.

00:55:10:13 - 00:55:30:24
Unknown
And that's like, I always get chills at that because that's like a terrible part of war is that you're like, you could die at any moment. And, you know, this whole thing is him trying to go back to home and enjoy his life, and he gets sucked back into it because the only person he ever loved is dead besides his father.

00:55:31:01 - 00:55:46:15
Unknown
But he loves his father. But the person he loved personally and people often interpret that as homosexual. And maybe it is, I don't know, but, you know, whatever. So that always that. And then I'll just say quickly, we don't have to get into it. Book nine The Embassy to Achilles,

00:55:46:15 - 00:55:53:21
Unknown
which I kind of already mentioned. That's one of my favorite parts because I think it, it's, it's one of the most individualistic things ever.

00:55:53:21 - 00:56:21:07
Unknown
And it's set off, in my view, like so much discussion about Greek culture going forward and like, sets the tone of Greek culture, of this individuality. So on some level, because he's making arguments as to, for all these things about why he no longer agrees with the fundamental Greek culture that he's accepted that they're all living, and so they're all living in this Greek culture of glory and honor, and that's what they live in.

00:56:21:09 - 00:56:44:05
Unknown
That's everything. Sarpedon has this great speech, this, this, this character, and the Achilles side and the Greek side. It's like, why do we get the the best meat? Why are we the ones who eat first? Well, because we're the first ones in the line. We're the where the front line man. And there's this famous speech on heroism that Sarpedon gives about why they are heroes and why they get the best stuff.

00:56:44:05 - 00:56:49:08
Unknown
And it's because they're the ones who are most likely to die first. And they they're the strongest and the best at that.

00:56:49:08 - 00:56:56:16
Unknown
There's the intellectual, the the philosopher. Leonard pickoff and dim hypothesis says these things. The the thesis

00:56:56:16 - 00:57:05:04
Unknown
or the theme of this is how the weak, rely on the strong in a sense. And then it's a strong culture and, you know, so killing him.

00:57:05:04 - 00:57:15:12
Unknown
Of what? Of the Iliad, of the theme of the Iliad, of because Achilles is the strongest of them all, he retires, they all die, and he comes back like, that's the fundament. Anyway, we'll have to debate that or anything. But,

00:57:15:12 - 00:57:20:06
Unknown
yeah. So book nine is really I mean, there's just so much about this. So one thing that's really interesting and,

00:57:20:06 - 00:57:27:11
Unknown
and the two perspectives that we're bringing to The Iliad, what I'm learning from you is looking at it kind of more from,

00:57:27:11 - 00:57:29:12
Unknown
the battle and soldiers mentality.

00:57:29:12 - 00:57:32:07
Unknown
So bringing in Band of Brothers, bringing in this idea of,

00:57:32:07 - 00:57:36:04
Unknown
glory and death and those aspects of it,

00:57:36:04 - 00:57:37:13
Unknown
I'll touch on that.

00:57:37:13 - 00:57:39:20
Unknown
That embassy again. Sure.

00:57:39:20 - 00:57:59:24
Unknown
Because I think for me, the climactic moment is the second embassy to Achilles. So to take us through the rest of the story here, Patroklos is killed and Achilles blames himself for the death of Patrick lists.

00:58:00:01 - 00:58:13:09
Unknown
It's my fault. He wouldn't have gone out there if I were out there. And so he's going to take his anger at the beginning. That rage from the beginning takes a second level, and Agamemnon is no longer the,

00:58:13:09 - 00:58:27:10
Unknown
the beneficiary of that rage. It's going to be Hector. And so he kills Hector, and he mutilates that body, and he wants it to stay mutilated.

00:58:27:12 - 00:58:38:12
Unknown
It's not going to be touch. It's not going to be buried. He wants the dogs to eat it, the crows to eat it. He wants to. That's the anger is on Hector, who killed his beloved Patroklos.

00:58:38:12 - 00:58:53:07
Unknown
And then, of course, Hector's father comes in the middle of the night, helped by the gods secretly to Achilles tent to beg for the body of Hector back.

00:58:53:09 - 00:59:17:19
Unknown
Just like it was important for Achilles to have Patrick Alyssa's body to honor him, to make sure he gets to the underworld, and with the proper burial. So Priam needs to have his son back. And in that previous embassy, there's one complaint that Achilles makes said, you're offering me everything, but I don't give a rat's ass about what you're offering me, I think.

00:59:17:22 - 00:59:32:18
Unknown
I don't think Homer says that. I think Homer says like Achilles says, the gifts you give could number the the grains of sand in the world, and I would not want them. And he points out one thing that didn't happen in December sympathy. Where is Agamemnon?

00:59:32:18 - 00:59:38:01
Unknown
Agamemnon, not himself, is not coming to speak to me. Yeah, that's a good point.

00:59:38:03 - 01:00:01:20
Unknown
And he says that, but Priam comes to him. And do you remember what I'm curious about? Different translations. Do you remember what Priam's first words to Achilles are, when he kind of miraculously appears in his tent and lunges to at the knees of Achilles to embrace them and to kiss his feet. Do you remember what his first words are?

01:00:01:22 - 01:00:26:07
Unknown
What? I don't remember? I've. Yeah. I mean, I don't remember exactly how it's phrased, but it's I'm pretty sure it's the line like, no father has ever had to kiss the hands of the the man who slayed his son. That's in there. That's Stephen Mitchell. Translation here. The first words. Okay, remember your father Achilles. Okay. That's okay. That may remember your father Achilles.

01:00:26:09 - 01:00:56:24
Unknown
Yeah. And you know, now that you're pointing it out, that I'm remembering one of the. So, you know, I remember one of the important parts of that is the, the line that Priam is balancing with a lot of wisdom of using these images and, you know, trying to keep Achilles from going over the edge and killing him like there's a moment when it's like Achilles might actually, he said, like, don't go farther.

01:00:56:24 - 01:01:20:16
Unknown
Essentially, I'll kill you. Like, and there's like premise balancing this line because he's very wise. And I think that's part of Priam's character is he's a wiser leader. I think that's what you're saying, in a sense, versus Agamemnon, son. So like, he didn't send an embassy to Achilles, he went himself. He grabbed in complete vulnerability. Right? He's he's an old man.

01:01:20:16 - 01:01:46:14
Unknown
He's never fought like Agamemnon fights. I don't know, not the beast. Right. He's out there. He's got his Oresteia is what they call it, is his day of signing and fighting and destroying pylons. Really ancient old. He's got 50 sons and they're fighting, but he's old. And so he goes. They're feeble. And it makes Achilles think of his father and then, like you're saying, I think there's, you know, he'll he'll he ask for concessions.

01:01:46:14 - 01:01:59:10
Unknown
And I remember all of them in line at the moment. But, you know, you ask for him to do this, to do that, to give us an Achilles is like, don't push it, you know, like, and you're staying here and, and there's, there's things like that. Oh, hold on a moment. I think I've got a very different feel than that.

01:01:59:12 - 01:02:04:02
Unknown
Okay, I feel I the sense I have from what I've read is

01:02:04:02 - 01:02:05:09
Unknown
when,

01:02:05:09 - 01:02:11:22
Unknown
Priam asks Achilles to empathize with him. Think of your father because

01:02:11:22 - 01:02:22:24
Unknown
what will he feel if he knew that you were dead? And for Achilles, it doesn't really have to be a hypothetical, because he knows he's going to die and he knows his dad is going to mourn him.

01:02:23:01 - 01:02:41:03
Unknown
So he is seeing now Priam is kind of his dad. He is empathizing, putting himself in the place of Hector. I'm going to be Hector one day. I'm going to be dead, and my dad is going to be just like Priam. And what if my dad didn't get my body back? No. So, yeah, we're agreeing

01:02:41:03 - 01:02:43:00
Unknown
that I think is the most important thing.

01:02:43:01 - 01:02:55:21
Unknown
I would just try. Yeah. And and then the, the key thing is that Achilles weeps and agrees. You can have the body back. That's the key thing this is all I'm saying is, like Hector says, I found it. Or

01:02:55:21 - 01:02:58:23
Unknown
Priam says, you know, do not ask me to sit down.

01:02:58:23 - 01:03:01:00
Unknown
Do not delay me. Accept great ransom.

01:03:01:06 - 01:03:04:22
Unknown
May you enjoy it and return safely. Look to learn of your father. And then,

01:03:04:22 - 01:03:17:12
Unknown
Achilles says something like it says in my translation. Translation. Looking blankly at him, swift footed, Achilles replied, now don't push me too far, venerable sir. I have made my mind up without your help to give Hector back to you, and then goes on.

01:03:17:12 - 01:03:17:24
Unknown
So

01:03:17:24 - 01:03:35:07
Unknown
all I'm saying, my point was, yeah, your point is great, because I agree with that. That's the fundamental is this is an inner emotional experience that Achilles has of empathy, that he's which had failed in the first, the first one, in a sense. Right. The first one.

01:03:35:07 - 01:03:40:05
Unknown
Phoenix. That's right, that's right. Gives a story about Malaga.

01:03:40:07 - 01:03:58:16
Unknown
He's trying to tell him the story about like this guy didn't do what you should be doing. And look at what happened in this, this whole long story. Yeah. And he doesn't learn it. Yeah, he doesn't take that. And later, though, he does learn the lesson. And but it took the killing of his best friend and the accepting of his fate in his death.

01:03:58:18 - 01:04:18:08
Unknown
And then, you know, now he has empathy for his father. That's that's. Yeah, I think two attempts at arousing empathy. The second one, as you point out, he's being vulnerable. It's he's there himself. Prime is there himself being vulnerable, being a good leader. And I'm trying like I think Priam is just a great leader. And that's that's part of what makes him great.

01:04:18:10 - 01:04:24:02
Unknown
And, yeah. So I think everyone should read The Iliad.

01:04:24:02 - 01:04:34:07
Unknown
What what do you take away from it? What do you take away from the Iliad? What do I take away from the Iliad? Like, like like one that. Sure.

01:04:34:07 - 01:04:38:10
Unknown
I don't know if I have a one thing. I have so many things. I mean, what's something that you take away from the Iliad?

01:04:38:12 - 01:04:39:16
Unknown
I mean, the the,

01:04:39:16 - 01:05:00:21
Unknown
origins of Western individualism, is one thing. I mean, I on a personal level, I mean, that's one broad thing which we all again, take for granted that it just exists. And I think we should understand the value structure we live in. And that's another thing I take out of it is the like,

01:05:00:21 - 01:05:03:05
Unknown
reading great literature, the canonical works.

01:05:03:05 - 01:05:23:22
Unknown
Why I'm so passionate about it is because what Achilles discovers is how to break out or try to break out and understand the value structures that he's in. He's fighting for glory and honor, for stuff and for people talking about it. That's what he that's the values that he's fighting for. And he realizes to get out of it.

01:05:23:22 - 01:05:49:18
Unknown
I think we need to do that today. Like we need to do that, like we need to be able to understand the structures that shape our own minds. And the RMB behaviors. What are we, what do we value and how much of it is ours versus put on to us by society that we live in? And I always Achilles is a model for me in the early days, is not a full model and obviously it goes the other way.

01:05:49:24 - 01:06:08:00
Unknown
But he's like someone who tries to get out of this, you know, structure. And then, you know, I just all the speeches. I feel bad for Hector. I mean, there's so many personal little stories, this great war story. And yeah, things are already sad. What about you? You talk about the structures that he gets out of.

01:06:08:00 - 01:06:09:19
Unknown
I think for me, it's,

01:06:09:19 - 01:06:11:04
Unknown
getting,

01:06:11:04 - 01:06:14:15
Unknown
breaking out of the emotional constraints that he has.

01:06:14:17 - 01:06:22:23
Unknown
Yeah, he is filled with anger, and he sees what that anger sows, and it makes me think, shit. If,

01:06:22:23 - 01:06:54:13
Unknown
if I hold on to this anger, it's not. It's going to hurt. It's going to hurt me, and it's going to hurt people I love. And that's what happens there. And then the solution to getting out of this anger is to empathize, is to look at that person that you, that you're angry at, and maybe to see a common humanity and that common humanity is part of that cycle of life that you've talked about.

01:06:54:15 - 01:07:05:06
Unknown
We're going to die. There's going to be weeping. There's going to be sadness between all these human beings, whether they're Trojan or Greek, and we have all the same fate.

01:07:05:06 - 01:07:18:05
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think it's a, it's the beginning of the canon for a reason. Any version of the canonical works of Western. All right. Yeah. There's so much more that I talk you about the connections to

01:07:18:05 - 01:07:27:17
Unknown
having gone into culture and the, the, the influences that the Iliad has and later works similar, you know, heroes is Achilles a great hero?

01:07:27:19 - 01:07:38:17
Unknown
All this kind of stuff. Yeah. It's analysts at Kirk. This is a lot of fun. Yeah. No, thanks for thanks for coming up with the idea. You know, it's a good timing. I'm starting up the canon club again.

01:07:38:17 - 01:07:47:22
Unknown
So go to troubadour Dot studio, and you can find out more about the Literary Canon Club for 2025 and go check out touching the Art,

01:07:47:22 - 01:07:51:12
Unknown
dot com and literature at our house.com for a look.

01:07:51:14 - 01:07:53:12
Unknown
So thank you and see you next time.