Inside the Mahabharata: Epic Conflicts, Greek Parallels, and Modern Lessons

Join host Kirk and special guest Srini—an engineer and Sanskrit scholar—as they uncover the hidden depths of the Mahabharata, one of India’s most celebrated epics. From analyzing the epic’s timeless themes of loyalty and honesty to drawing unexpected parallels with Greek myths, this discussion reveals how the Mahabharata continues to shape culture, philosophy, and even modern theater performances. Whether you’re a longtime fan or curious newcomer, you’ll discover fresh insights into why these ancient tales still resonate across the globe today.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:09
Unknown
Welcome to the troubadour channel. Thanks for coming on, Srini. I get it, Srini. And I always want to make sure I'm getting names right, because I'm, you know, have such interesting people myself from all over the world. And I love that it's, you know, same thing. Like it took me three episodes to get Mahabharata.

00:00:17:12 - 00:00:39:01
Unknown
I was mispronouncing it the whole time, and now I'm getting it. And that's what we're going to talk about today, is the Mahabharata. Maybe the Bhagavad Gita, its role in culture and the, particularly the performance. I'll give this back. But this is my script from, this is the script we're using for the version of Mahabharata that we're doing here in Austin.

00:00:39:02 - 00:01:08:08
Unknown
February 14th to the 23rd. In, of 2025. So if you are watching this video after that, you've missed our performance. But I still hope you'll get a lot out of this podcast and out of our discussion of the Mahabharata and all its, you know, glory and wonder and influence and productiveness. I like that word and literature like literature that's productive, where people have built lives and ideas and cultures based on it.

00:01:08:10 - 00:01:32:03
Unknown
So, Srini, you, have you have an engineering degree. You have a master's in Sanskrit studies. Yes, Sanskrit studies. And you helped so and took a lot of the artistic director of Austin Shakespeare, who's producing the show and directing the show of Mahabharata tales that we're doing. She took the Peter Brook version, which is like a eight hour version or something like that, right?

00:01:32:05 - 00:01:54:16
Unknown
And she shrunk it down. She edited it down herself into like a two hour, 15 minute version. You were brought on because. Because of your expertise to help, make sure that the cultural references were correct. Make sure, because obviously, you're cutting a lot of stuff. So is the core, the really important scenes? Are they contextual? Do they make sense and things like that?

00:01:54:16 - 00:02:17:12
Unknown
Is that correct? Yes. And my participation actually has not been into heavy editing or anything like that, but into some cultural references, as you say. Okay. And, mostly towards the philosophical aspect of things. Oh, okay. Okay. So you listen to my last podcast with, OSR, I think some of it. Yeah. We went off on the philosophy of some of the philosophies.

00:02:17:16 - 00:02:43:19
Unknown
So that's interesting. Before we go into deeper things about the Mahabharata, about the Bhagavad Gita and everything. I was hoping you could give a little bit of a overview of for someone who does not know the story, right? Or maybe not, hasn't even heard it before. They most people in the, you know, have probably heard of the Bhagavad Gita, but they probably have not.

00:02:43:19 - 00:03:10:06
Unknown
A lot of people I'm running into and this, you know, very smart, educated people and myself included months ago, like, I've barely really heard of this thing. And, you know, I'm really getting excited about learning and deep, deeper into it. But if you can give an overview of especially what might be relevant for someone coming to see this truncated version, that might help them get more out of the play, out of, you know, their first steps into the Mahabharata?

00:03:10:08 - 00:03:40:14
Unknown
Yeah. So it's a very culturally significant epic and heavy influence over generations. Yeah. But in order to understand Mahabharata, we got to understand the meaning of Maha Bharata. It's a compound word. Maha means a great okay. Pot at that. It's got many meanings. Yeah. How? One meaning is that it's related to, Bharata and his dynasty.

00:03:40:16 - 00:04:08:09
Unknown
Bharata was a king, okay? King. King and, you know, he unified the country. That's one meaning. And then there is another etymological meaning, which is, PA pa means the light. The light of knowledge. Okay. And those who are immersed in the light of knowledge, the great story about the people that are immersed in the light of knowledge.

00:04:08:11 - 00:04:39:16
Unknown
And, so this is, I don't, it used to be people said it was around 24 or, 24,000 verses, and then later grew to about 100,000 verses. Yeah. But, there is a critical edition, which actually, has about, 89,000 verses, I guess, and toss away. It's, it's around. Is it Penguin Classics?

00:04:39:19 - 00:04:59:03
Unknown
Is it in that? It is. So I was looking at a version I'm going to get. It's 914 pages and it says it's a and it's a abridged version. Abridged version? Yeah. That is of the entirety, but, you know, shrunken down in English, obviously. So I want to read it in English because. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's probably a compiled version actually.

00:04:59:04 - 00:05:28:10
Unknown
Okay, okay. Got it. Yeah. But what about the the select the story itself. So people I think are going to come to the Mahabharata for the story because I think it's a really good story. I think there's interesting elements, there's drama and there's you when you dive into a story. What I love about literature and poetry and art is you go into this world and you, John Keats called it the realms of gold traveling through the realms of gold, which is the realms of the imagination.

00:05:28:12 - 00:05:48:19
Unknown
You go into this world and you meet new you, like you meet a whole new set of cultural values. Then you're probably you still. Yeah. Now, we could we could pass out and discuss philosophically those values. And that's very valuable. And I want to do that. But at the end of the day, the thing that brings us there is the same thing that brings a child in India.

00:05:48:21 - 00:06:09:08
Unknown
You know, I had, Kumar Abhinav here who plays Bhishma and he was talking about in the 90s how everyone, you know, in India every like every Sunday, I think it was they went, you know, it's like the whole country shut down for an hour. Yeah. Watching this thing and that to me is not they weren't talking philosophy, right.

00:06:09:10 - 00:06:34:19
Unknown
It was just what's going on with Arjuna? And what's he going to do today? And what's Krishna going to do and what's them are going to do. And that's what I want to talk about, because I think that's what I hope will bring people to this play and to the broader, you know, story of Mahabharata. So if you could just give us a little bit of an overview of just some basic elements that might help somebody, you know, enjoy the story, get into it, like why it's exciting.

00:06:34:21 - 00:07:06:14
Unknown
Yeah, sure. The very first verse of Mahabharata we also declares that, in the realm of dharma and, you know, Dharma, Arthur, karma and moksha, we say. So these are fourfold, values of human life. Yeah. Okay. Dharma, the path of righteousness, you could say. And, artha, the means to achieve your desires. Okay? Karma means your wants, needs and desires.

00:07:06:16 - 00:07:31:06
Unknown
And then, moksha, deliberation, not liberation or the freedom from other people only, but freedom from your own limited thoughts. Yes. So this is what it strives to achieve, right? What the Mahabharata is trying to achieve is, getting a, like, liberating from your own inner desires. Yes. You know, just like that's how it starts them all. Yes.

00:07:31:07 - 00:07:54:08
Unknown
And so that's like the that's like the equivalent of, the angers of Achille and Elliot maybe. Yeah. Right. It's like you're trying to get away if you're trying to improve from that. Correct. And, for example, Achilleus the wrath of anger, right? Yeah. The wrath of anger and the his, quest for vengeance. Yeah. That actually brought him down in the great Greek heroes.

00:07:54:10 - 00:08:21:05
Unknown
You know, suffered from that thing. So what, this story's about is. Yes, the whole world pursues desires and means to achieve those desires. Yes. Right. It's called karma and artha. These are like two bulls, it seems, to where bulls where are not under control. Okay, okay. Maximum destruction is caused by, karma and thought or the desires and the means to achieve them.

00:08:21:07 - 00:08:42:12
Unknown
Got it. Right. Yeah. So the desire and then the action to get that, get that thing in order to, contain them, you need dharma, a pillar, and then moksha, another pillar where these two bolts are tied. When you do that thing, that is going to be under control. Otherwise they just go haywire. You got to tie your balls up.

00:08:42:15 - 00:09:15:09
Unknown
Yes. Okay, okay. And then that. So that makes sense. You're saying that's the context. That's the that's the first verse which says that in the realm of these fourfold, thoughts are the values that okay, whatever Purusha are meaning them. Yeah. And that that's basically values, values, values of human life. Most abstract values got it right. And, all animals and humans have the desires and the means to achieve those desires.

00:09:15:09 - 00:09:37:10
Unknown
But what they do not have the knowledge of dharma and the pursuit of happiness or the freedom from all these limitations. Okay. Right. So, in the realm of these fourfold values, whatever exists in Mahabharata may exist elsewhere.

00:09:37:12 - 00:10:05:13
Unknown
But what does that mean? Where, whatever exists within the story, in the story may exist elsewhere, like in real life, in meaning, in other stories, in, in the world, anywhere else. But what does not exist in Mahabharata exists nowhere. The that's how he stuff. So like it's you're saying it has the tenor of totality and the highest in all of life and philosophy and cosmology and.

00:10:05:14 - 00:10:26:16
Unknown
All right. Well, so. Oh, no. Oh. Yeah. Hold on one second. Let me make sure I'm still recording over there. Yeah. That's a bummer.

00:10:26:18 - 00:10:57:04
Unknown
Let me also recording. Okay. I can edit this. Oh, sure. Okay. I just want to make sure I'm still recording and nothing's messed up. Test 123. Test 123. Can I get a test from you? Okay. Yeah. Just 123. Test one. Two three. Yeah. Okay. We're good. All right. So because I'm not using the enhancer. Yeah okay. So hold on I was going to say,

00:10:57:06 - 00:11:20:15
Unknown
I wanted to say something about. What? We were talking. I was the last, the values, values of human life now. So it was totally. Yeah, yeah. So there's something you're you're touching on something that in Mahabharata, the first verse. Yeah. But what you just said, I think, is that there's, it encompasses everything. Everything is nothing outside of it.

00:11:20:15 - 00:11:45:15
Unknown
It is a totality. Yeah. About human life, about existence, about the world, about the gods, about the relationship to the gods. Yes, everything. And, you know, when I do literary canon and things like that, one of the things I try to point out to people is that for thousands of years, up until more, more contemporary times, really up until like the 1800s, that was the goal of the epic in general.

00:11:45:15 - 00:12:08:03
Unknown
Yes. Like the view of Dante or even Chaucer to some degree. But I, you know, of Virgil is that they're encompassing everything about humanity and human existence and experience and the world in a way that we don't really we're not familiar with. And I think, you know, I usually think that there's like fire in the West.

00:12:08:03 - 00:12:33:08
Unknown
There's like five great epics that do that. There's The Iliad and the Odyssey, there's Virgil, there's Dante, there's Milton, and then it's. That's it. Yeah. There's, you know, Paradise Lost. And then out of that, there's, you know, I won't go into too much, but there's people who try to do this. But because of this, like burgeoning scientific discovery, it becomes almost, you know, complete a, you know, appropriation of effort.

00:12:33:10 - 00:12:55:00
Unknown
Like, they just cannot encompass all of knowledge at that time, all of information, I think, I think I've read this somewhere that someone it's probably not even true, but someone said, like Samuel Taylor Coleridge was the last man to read everything that was in existence at that time, or something like that. It might have been Ben Johnson, but it was like, there's there's some period in something.

00:12:55:04 - 00:13:20:01
Unknown
My point is that that's that is an important part about epics. It's like, because it's an epic, there's something about you're getting to the highest degree, all of what that people believed and understood and their whole value system all in one place that you in a in condensed or sometimes not as condensed. It's like, you know, but somewhat condensed into a approachable text.

00:13:20:01 - 00:13:42:09
Unknown
Yeah. And that I think is very interesting. It's very interesting. And it's also the approach of the, as I hear, not only is confidence can be seen in that verse, but also has some humility to acknowledge that it may exist elsewhere. Yeah, right. Guess humility. Do it. Oh. So, and that's Arjuna, that's Vyasa, who's writing of yours.

00:13:42:09 - 00:14:16:09
Unknown
Right. This is, this is the story of Mahabharat. And, so now the, story goes saying that, well, it is not just about the one generation. It's about four generations. Yeah, right. And that's the structure of the story structure for for a generation, not just like Achilles. Yes. It's about for different generations. The reason that there is a reason for why four generations know, Altman, our life has, you know, as a footnote during the our childhood.

00:14:16:11 - 00:14:43:09
Unknown
Now we have, our phase of development, and then comes, youth, middle age and then old age. Sure. And then this these four stages across four generations would be quite interesting. So that is what is going to be making it, you know, be holistic. Yeah. And it's also very cyclical. Some of those mistakes are actually repeated.

00:14:43:10 - 00:15:17:19
Unknown
So repeated, repeated, you know, where there is a conflict between duty and moral responsibility. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. So we could talk about that at some point. So if we get, if we have time because, because I think I see that in exploration of heroes from, you know, again Achilleus to even all the way down to modern times and like the, the conflicts you find today, even, like Marvel heroes, it tends to be between like a personal moral desire or something they're trying to go after, or their civic duty or their duty to the some broader idea and that that is so prevalent.

00:15:17:19 - 00:15:42:04
Unknown
I think we don't even realize that there's other ways of doing and thinking about things. But okay, so what you're trying to if I'm understanding you, what you're saying is there's, the Mahabharata, like, like any epic, like any great epic in history has a kind of cultural significance, a cosmological and, you know, significance that's important when you're approaching it to understand that these are not just frivolous tales.

00:15:42:04 - 00:16:01:12
Unknown
It's there's something there is something deeper. Yes. Which is the whole point you're missing out. Yeah. If you don't try to grapple a little bit to think about the deeper meanings of what's going on. Yes. So that's one thing that somebody who's coming to the play or coming to Mahabharata for the first time, yes, that they should think about that.

00:16:01:13 - 00:16:14:09
Unknown
You know, when you're seeing it, it's like it's things may look a little different to you. Like when I was watching Peter Brook stuff, I was like, this is like, this is like, I've never seen anything like this, you know, it's this guy in this bed of arrows and he stands up on it and. But his dad, is he not dad.

00:16:14:09 - 00:16:29:13
Unknown
What's going on? Like, you know, like it's all this stuff. And I was like, okay, so these guys are hitting these each other with this. Mason can hit each other in the thigh and this guy's like, yes, yeah, yeah. That's like there's all this stuff. And I'm like, okay, what's going there's something deeper going on that is important.

00:16:29:13 - 00:16:48:05
Unknown
And part of the interesting exploration of great art. Yes. What I think is there. So what's another thing that somebody who's coming to, you know, again, I want them to get like a sense of the story, something like they've never heard of Arjuna, so what should they know about the story in a sense that might help them. Yeah.

00:16:48:07 - 00:17:18:06
Unknown
So the first thing that they have to know about is, you know, people are flawed. You know, people are not always black and white. Yeah, well, it can be gray, right? In a so now. Yeah, when people are gray and, they have flaws and they're not, nobody's completely, pure or nobody's completely impure. In those cases, conflict is inevitable.

00:17:18:07 - 00:17:44:05
Unknown
So when there are groups that are actually competing for the same thing, are the same resource, in this case, the kingdom, right? Yeah. How how do you know who's on the right now? Where do you support you can you can be neutral. And, if you're neutral. Yeah. You're actually siding with the evil many times. And you gotta sit down.

00:17:44:10 - 00:18:12:00
Unknown
Yes. And not take a side is to take a. Yeah, it happens there. And said yeah, yeah. Even this versions. Yes. They talk about neutrality and the problem of it. Yes. Yeah. So conflict neutrality. And how do you find the solution? Is it okay, to break the rules in order to, uphold the principle in know in moral principle?

00:18:12:05 - 00:18:32:19
Unknown
Yeah. To lie. Yeah. So accomplish a success in war. Yes. Which does happen in Russia, right? Right. Yeah. Is that a is that acceptable? Do the the means justify the ends? Yes. Right. Yeah. If you're trying to win a war, is it okay to be deceitful, to lie? To lie. Yes. Yes. Because it wins a war. Yes. And for example.

00:18:32:20 - 00:19:02:16
Unknown
Oh, everybody knows killing is immoral. Killing is evil. But soldier kills the enemy in a war. So what happened? All right. So these are, certain, you know, some of the moral conflicts that, you face every day. But this is set in war, which is actually do or die situation. Yeah. So therefore, the decisions tend to be a very, very influential and impactful.

00:19:02:18 - 00:19:29:11
Unknown
Yeah. So in those cases, how do you resolve a moral conflict? And, while while you're in that process, how can the story be very interesting and gripping? Yeah. So that well, that's what I want to, kind of set up for people is how is it it's still so again, it's not I want to don't want to make it sound to people that it's like it's two hours of 15 minutes of people just, conversing about philosophy.

00:19:29:14 - 00:19:49:00
Unknown
Right? It's not that at all. It's not, it really is. These tales. And you'll get some mythology, like some deep cause, like gods and how that where they came from. And like, Ganesh, we have a whole discussion about where he comes from, and we have a person acting out and portraying Indonesia in this in Asia, in Asia, again.

00:19:49:00 - 00:20:10:05
Unknown
Asia. And that was actually I was, who was I was also playing Arjuna. Does that as well. Sorry to break the, you know, theatrical illusion for you. But he's playing both characters, but, you know, so you're going to get a lot of that. You're also going to get the story of Arjuna. Bhima.

00:20:10:07 - 00:20:31:16
Unknown
This that. Naquela. So, yeah. And so you get these five brothers, the pond of our brothers, and then you have the core of our, brothers, and the are their cousins, and they go to war. And I think you're you're talking about is this conflict that that's part of life. And they're the conflicted over this territory?

00:20:31:16 - 00:20:56:08
Unknown
Yes. That has been lost because of for perhaps or probably, you decide, deceit at this moment of deceit by someone on the core of a side, but also because of something wrong with Yudhishthira and who's the eldest and who's making decisions, probably that he shouldn't. Yes. That's causing, kind of chaos. Yeah. And causes a lot of turmoil and things like that.

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:15:08
Unknown
So it's. And I think it's like this desire you're talking about where there's a desire for, you know, winning more and gambling and things like that. And that leads to all these bad things. Yeah. And then on the other side, there's a kind of deceptive ness, deceit to win the win this thing, to win the things. And they eventually get that, for some time.

00:21:15:08 - 00:21:35:15
Unknown
But that leads to, that that leads to a big war that kills thousands of people. And, you know, it's a obviously a big deal. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And so that's, I think, a kind of the core of what we're doing. And that's the core of the Mahabharat. On a sense, yes. And we're showing those scenes and elements that I think people will get out of.

00:21:35:15 - 00:21:54:16
Unknown
Yeah, it's full of action. Full of action. Yeah. There's fighting. I have like 4 or 5 fights myself. Yeah. You know, I know Arjuna has some cool sword fights I have. My God, is wonderful. Yeah, a big Ole Miss, so. Yeah. And so there's a lot of action. There's love, there's, you know, some interest.

00:21:54:17 - 00:22:15:16
Unknown
And like I said, I think the interesting drama and conflicts between, like, a great character, like Karna. Yes. You comes into the action. And who is this person? Is challenging Arjuna because Arjuna is the greatest warrior. But he says he's the greatest warrior. So there's a whole, you know, conflict. A lot of competition about that. Yeah, yeah, a lot of competition to who's the best.

00:22:15:16 - 00:22:35:06
Unknown
Yeah. Which is part of warrior culture. Yeah. That's part of all warrior cultures is who's the best. Yes. Right. It's like there was no glory. Yeah. Well and that's. Yeah. So that's another thing because that's a deep theme of all epics in the sense that especially war epics is this, why are you doing this? Well, for glory.

00:22:35:06 - 00:22:56:17
Unknown
Yeah, because I want people to talk a lot. And part of what I think Arjuna is conflict is internal. Conflict is, you know, he's going to kill his relatives for glory and for, like. For what? Yeah. Why? Like, why is he doing this? And that's part of the question that he's kind of, trying to approach. Yeah. And then he gets Krishna, who's an incarnation of Vishnu.

00:22:56:19 - 00:23:15:05
Unknown
Personal. Yeah. Who is there to help guide him? Yes. The divine guidance. The divine guidance. Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of a setup. That's I think like I know it's a little long, but I think that's. Yeah. For, for someone that is approaching the story the very first time. Yes. There are good guys. There are bad guys.

00:23:15:11 - 00:23:36:22
Unknown
Yeah. There are five good guys who are brothers, but they're gray. They're somewhat gray, but not they're not evil gray. Okay. Yeah. They are. They have some conflicts. Okay. They're not perfect, sir. And, Kota was the most perfect. Be my. Are his. Yeah. No conflict at all. He doesn't have any conflict. No conflict. Yes. And, that's my character.

00:23:36:22 - 00:24:06:04
Unknown
Yeah. Kota us. Kota was the bad guys, and, they are into led by Duryodhana. Yeah, but no, what with his 99 other brothers. And the four main villains are Duryodhana. Shakuni. So, Queenie. Yeah. And then comes, the Shazam, asana and Karna. All right. Yeah. Those are these are the four main villains. Yeah. So you'll see those four villains on stage.

00:24:06:04 - 00:24:32:11
Unknown
On stage? Yeah. So that's in our play. And then, yeah, you have the five upon the five Pandavas, the sons of Pondo. Yeah. And, Yudhishthira. Bhima, Arjuna, Nikola and Sarhad. There were five good guys, and, and they are somewhat, you know, they, they want the kingdom now wants the kingdom.

00:24:32:13 - 00:24:50:05
Unknown
And because he's the eldest and, you know, legally it he should be, given the throne, but he is not being given the throne, because Duryodhana does not want it, because he thinks that does not want him to have it. Yeah. He does not want to do it on a wants the kingdom for himself. For himself.

00:24:50:05 - 00:25:22:05
Unknown
Yeah, but you these, also wants it. And so there's a question of succession, succession, question of succession. And, so there's the conflict. Yeah. They are sent for, well, you know, there is this dispute going on. So the, the Rashtra, who is the blind king, father of Duryodhana, you know, makes, up a settlement kind of thing where, he's given a very, you is given a barren land.

00:25:22:07 - 00:25:45:00
Unknown
Okay, a forest, which he actually transforms that into Indraprastha, one of the most beautiful. Oh. Really? Yeah. That's not enough. But that's not in the story. But that's where they build. That's where they have this, Palace of Illusions. Okay. So that's that's not in the story. It's not in the story. Yeah, but it's in the Mahabharata, correct?

00:25:45:01 - 00:26:08:01
Unknown
Yeah. Obviously we cut a little back there, and that's where, Duryodhan, Duryodhana feels insulted. So his he feels insulted because. Drop it. He laughs at it. Yeah. That's it. Right? Yes. Yeah. So supposedly it's an ego. His heart, his ego. Tara. Because she laughs. Why does he laugh at him again? I she says he sees the, the palace.

00:26:08:05 - 00:26:32:10
Unknown
He's just wandering around and then finds the oh, there is water that looks like solid tiles and, and and, walls that look like, waterfalls and those kind of things. And he's all confused and he goes in false, and the thinking that it's, it's, falls and falls into, yeah, pond. And she laughs, saying that, there are some various versions.

00:26:32:12 - 00:26:50:20
Unknown
Yeah, where everybody sees that and she says that. Oh, I thought only your father is blind, but but yeah. So she pokes fun at him. Yeah, yeah. It's not even like a deep insult. No, but it's just he sees. So that's, really shows his pettiness, pettiness and I think that's what the creators are trying to do.

00:26:50:20 - 00:27:09:04
Unknown
This show. The pettiness of this guy. Yeah. At least according to this. Yeah. And. Okay, so. But that's, I think, a good overview of what people need to know. That's it. Like you, I don't think you need to know a lot. Really? Well, if you know anything, if you go in blind. Yeah, you're going to get something out of the play.

00:27:09:09 - 00:27:30:03
Unknown
Like, I think people will still see the Blind King. There's explanations. We repeat the names of everybody many times. Many times. So people get a sense of who's who. Why are Judas going here? You know, you'll find that like, we'll say Draupadi is the, the, possession, five man or she's, you know, five men are married to her.

00:27:30:05 - 00:27:48:16
Unknown
And and but you'll see, like, she probably has a favorite maybe with Arjuna, but then you destroy. So it's like you'll see all that stuff in the play, and all of it will be pretty clear, I think not. Yeah. The backstory is not going to be clear. Yeah. That's what you're missing. Yes. And that's why you should explore more of this when you're done with this play.

00:27:48:22 - 00:28:21:00
Unknown
Are playing I think is a great introduction to it. But yes, you know, and again, if you're seeing this afterwards that's okay. Just go you know. Yeah. Just go check out the Mahabharata. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one thing I wanted to talk about is, and I talked about this a little bit with us, and I was I've been interested in this, which is the relationship between because you Sanskrit is an expertise of yours, the relationship of the Mahabharata to Greek and Roman and other epics.

00:28:21:00 - 00:28:41:14
Unknown
Because, again, I've been studying those my whole life, and there's just such similarities. And it's really funny to like so far, you know, and I've had a couple people on the show who grew up with them because I didn't grow up with myth, like, we don't really grow up with myth in America, the same way, like I grew up with Spiderman and Wolverine and Saturday morning cartoons.

00:28:41:16 - 00:29:12:04
Unknown
I and I wasn't raised Christian. Really. So the Christians, I think we'll go to Sunday school and they'll learn Christian stories, but we don't really have that in, you know, a more secular Western thing about these mythical stories. So it's been very interesting, like hearing certain pushback on certain things, ideas I have. But I really and seeing such a core similarity between it, where it's like there's a conflict over there's a, there's a big civil war of some sort over a territory.

00:29:12:06 - 00:29:44:23
Unknown
Right. You have, a character and it's there's even a dispute. It's over the loss of personal glory and or a personal thing like Achilles loses Briseis, a slave girl. And that's what sets off the action of the Iliad. Arjuna and his brothers. But Arjuna, if we take just Arjuna, loses his wife. And that kind of sets off the kind of, you know, chain reaction that leads to the war, in a sense, and the getting of the war, you know, saying about.

00:29:45:00 - 00:30:11:19
Unknown
And so Draupadi is, I think, very different than Helen, but I see there's definite similarities where it's like there's there's some central story involved that is causing the conflict. And it is, in this case, the loss. You know, an Achilles case. It's the loss of Briseis, by the arbitrary, dictates of Agamemnon in the sense of Mahabharata.

00:30:11:19 - 00:30:42:11
Unknown
It's the Yudhishthira gambling loses party to the. You know, now there's certain interventions that bring her back and they all go to the forest. But I think that whole situation is what leads to the Civil War, right? Yeah. So I just like a whole bunch of similarities like that, you know, and then I think even the, the whole sense of Arjuna having his conflict about what he should do is similar to what Achilles and other, you know.

00:30:42:17 - 00:31:07:13
Unknown
Well, more, more similar to India. So, I think I might. Yeah. Achilles never became a slave though, whereas here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I understand that, but I'm just saying there's definitely a lot of differences. So I'm not saying there's no differences. I'm saying the reason I'm asking this, and you specifically in Sanskrit is I'm wondering where the, similarities came from.

00:31:07:15 - 00:31:37:10
Unknown
Right. So what happened? Is it so I know there's something and I'm not I don't know much about this. Maybe you can help. I know there's something with the Indo-European origins in language to Sanskrit that's actually similar. Yeah it's Greek a man and other Greek and Latin, Greek and Latin and, but even I think German and like there's a lot of like, you know proto what was the, what's the word Indo-European but rather that, that there's the coming from the same kind of place.

00:31:37:10 - 00:32:05:06
Unknown
And that must be where some similarities come from, is that there's some origin that's similar. It's not just the language. Yeah, it's the culture too. Sure. The it they're all very sisterly cultures, which you don't think of. Yeah. You don't hear. Oh and especially people that are, that have the background of Ramayana or Mahabharata, they can grasp the Greece, the Greek, epics and the Greek mythology much.

00:32:05:08 - 00:32:32:12
Unknown
I mean it probably in an easier way. Yeah. Here is the reason, right? And you have, Zuse. Just Zuse. And the son of, Cronus. Right? Yes. Uranus for the, so the Romans. Yeah. Depends where in coming. Well, so the similar, the I'm in fact, the parallel or the analogous god of the Indians is Indra, the father of Arjuna.

00:32:32:15 - 00:32:58:14
Unknown
Yeah. Which we talk about the king? Yeah. The king of gods. Single gods. Yeah. Right. And, we do have, and, now, Hercules. Hercules is probably similar to Bhima. Yes, that's what I prefer in terms of physical strength. Physical strength. And he does adventures on his own, too. Like. Right. Just like Hercules. Yes. And, I think Achilles is somewhat similar to Corona,

00:32:58:16 - 00:33:29:09
Unknown
Yeah. I thought okay, maybe. Yeah, but, but his vengeance when, Patroclus says his cousin dies. Yeah. And then he goes and then fights Hector. Right. And then he says, but there's no pact between lions and when when he says. And in fact, do you see the similarities there? The reason I came, to that point is because, the rules that, that should be followed in a war.

00:33:29:11 - 00:33:48:03
Unknown
Right. They wouldn't fight night times. They wouldn't fight, you know, from the you can't hurt from the back. You got to face, you had to fight face to face. Yeah. It's war and yeah, warrior culture. In fact Dakota was raised those kind of points where, hey, you got to follow the rules of the war. Yeah, yeah.

00:33:48:04 - 00:34:07:03
Unknown
You see, I mean, the car was always saying that you got to be following this, this societal rule, this, these rules of the war, and you're breaking it. Yeah. You know, they did. Well, that's like a deceptive thing that people who are deceivers are by nature will do this. They'll try to hold you to rules, but then they'll be secretly breaking them or doing something to you.

00:34:07:03 - 00:34:34:19
Unknown
Yeah, it's like, you know, societal rules to the letter, but not in spirit, not in spirit, not in spirit. And they keep doing that. They'll they'll use that against you. Yeah. They using it. Yeah. But that's like a human thing that you see in life. It's a really important lesson I think in life is you'll see people who are trying to hold you to certain societal or whatever rules, but they're really just doing it to manipulate you and get something out of you, I think, or to win something over you or put something over you.

00:34:34:21 - 00:35:07:07
Unknown
Yeah. And, you know, well, he was, Achilles was actually even his wrath was so much that he actually drags the dead body of Hector for about 12 miles or so. Right? Yeah. Anyway, yeah, it's circles around is, I think that kind of thing happens, for Abhimanyu where he's killed. In, in a very brutal way, though he was only 16 years old, and they're attacked from the back, you know, deceiving him.

00:35:07:09 - 00:35:33:19
Unknown
And he is captured. That actually makes Arjuna take the oath that he would kill Jared later. Yes. That's true. Yeah, because that's his son. Yeah, that's that's his son. Yes, that's Arjuna, and that's what I mean about the similarities. Similarities is that there's. But but again, I think that makes Arjuna more Achilles than, than Karna. But, there's probably is similarities between many of the humans.

00:35:33:19 - 00:35:59:01
Unknown
Many. Yes. Yes. You know, like I, I think of Bhishma as almost a Hector. Yes. You could say that like an an interesting like because he is really dealing with the real life consequences of this. And, you know, I mean, obviously one big difference is that he is unconquerable and very human. So, I mean, coming back to the point that, why these are all similar cultures.

00:35:59:03 - 00:36:21:20
Unknown
Yeah. Cause, they are very open to nature and the gratitude for natural forces and seeing, I mean, having to assign deities for all these, for nature and, and the natural forces. Yeah. You know, for example, the Indians have the, in the Mahabharata, you would see the god of wind, God, the God of breath.

00:36:21:20 - 00:36:57:23
Unknown
Why you, And, let's be Bhima. He must, father. And, And the destroyer, is the son of, Yamaha Dharma. It's got multiple names, and, he's also the, the king of the netherworld, like Hades. Right. And, I'm, Yeah. Pretty decent destiny. Yeah. And, but I do not know much about Hades because I don't see Hades doing the, the, just the he doesn't pass on judgments like Yama does.

00:36:58:01 - 00:37:23:12
Unknown
The, the father of your destroyer. Yeah. As the king of the underworld. King of underworld. Yeah. So and then, we have, Ashwini Kumar us who are the fathers of, Nakul and Sativa. They are, you know, they are not for swordsmanship as well as wisdom. Wisdom. That's where they excel, right?

00:37:23:12 - 00:37:47:03
Unknown
And also they are, gods of medicine and all that data said, we have similar deities in the Greek culture. And, for example, the goddess of war was Athena. Yes. Right. And goddess of knowledge to goddess of wisdom. And, so we have I wouldn't call her the goddess of war, but Arya's knowledge.

00:37:47:05 - 00:38:10:16
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, she's more like wisdom. Wisdom? Yeah, yeah. But. Yeah. Anyway. But, like, so there's Aries. It's like. Yeah, so. But, this what's interesting though is there's you're. Yeah, you're absolutely correct as all these similarities, there's all these different wars. But I think that's pretty prevalent in most cultures, whether they're Indo European and nature or not or in origin or not.

00:38:10:17 - 00:38:39:03
Unknown
But there's still something about the specific details of the story. Oh, yeah. Like that must have happened where there was some peoples and the echoes of history or something that, you know, where you similar. And then they spread out and, you know, throughout Europe and India and eventually came up with their own versions of these things. That's my, my hypothesis or my view, I don't know, but because there's just the similarities in structure and, you know, what they're going about is interesting.

00:38:39:03 - 00:39:02:05
Unknown
And then there's differences that are also interesting. Yes. Yes. The answer to that thing is there have been a lot of research, going on since the days of William Jones. Yeah. And, who tell us about, yeah. He was not only an Indology, but, he was, one of the, viceroys to end the British Empire.

00:39:02:06 - 00:39:22:00
Unknown
Yeah. From Rome. Yeah. He was the one who actually discovered the similarities between Sanskrit, Greek and Latin and all of that. He was a philologist and then went on to say, oh, Sanskrit is this languages, more copious amounts and that it's a discovery, like, it's like there's this culture that looks so different than yours. And then you're like, oh, wow.

00:39:22:00 - 00:39:56:19
Unknown
But we have like the same origin. Yes. It was something similar. And that's what I'm finding really interesting about Mahabharata again, is and then just talking to all these people, they're like on the cars or from India or have that culture just they all love the Greek too. They all are very interested. And again, because there's similarities and to me, what's so exciting, why I want to explore more of Indian cultures is that, in studying Latin and Greek and all of it, other than the English, you're kind of studying a dead mythology.

00:39:56:21 - 00:40:17:16
Unknown
Yeah, but in studying the Mahabharata, it's a living. Living. Yeah. So it's like you really get a sense. Yeah. In fact, you see all those, seven great civilizations of the Earth, right? Your Greek, your Greeks and the Greeks did. Those epics are in the library today. They're living. And the romance and the word you'll see in it.

00:40:17:16 - 00:40:39:20
Unknown
And it's not living civilization. It's. It's there in the library. Oh, yeah. Right. The Egyptians gone the South. And, the America, the South American culture. So that's gone. Incans and Mayans and all that, and, Mesopotamian. But the Epic of Gilgamesh, where is it today? Yeah, right. Where are the people who believe in it?

00:40:39:20 - 00:41:08:10
Unknown
And. Yeah, let's follow it. Yes. And, so none of them, actually, except, in India, it's an epic living culture where, you know, people name their kids after the characters of marble. I know, yeah. That's crazy. I mean, in a good way, I mean, crazy. It's just like, for my it's just like, I. I found it, so, I don't know, it just it really teaches you a lot about what these epics and what these mythologies are really about.

00:41:08:12 - 00:41:43:04
Unknown
Yes. Yeah. Because the only analogy I've always had with them is like Christianity, which is an analogy, because that does have its own mythology. It does have its own dogma, it has its own value system and things like that. And that's the same, you know, it's the same kind of thing on that basis. But there's an alienist to that, in my view, actually, even though it's so prevalent today, there's an alien this and just how different the basic story desires, values, goals, everything of that of Christianity versus the Greeks that's find them to be so different.

00:41:43:05 - 00:42:18:05
Unknown
Whereas I find the Indian to be much more. I mean, just as a as an example, I'm sure, you know, just the idea of eroticism and like the, the connection from eroticism to being a concrete exploration and expression of a love for God. Yeah. Where and I think there's a more a desire with Indian religion and other. There's some religions like this, of course, not just Indian, but that are more about the concrete than the abstract art, where it's more about the thing here, the physical manifestation.

00:42:18:05 - 00:42:44:23
Unknown
That's important. Yeah. Over the abstract or, you know, in, in, in conjunction with the abstract. Whereas I think Christianity is way more about the abstract at the expense of the concrete. Yeah, it's much more about this, you know, somehow vague kind of idea in the sky, that kind of a man with a beard or whatever his god, or they somehow manifested in God the Son, the Holy Spirit in the.

00:42:44:23 - 00:43:04:18
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. You know, the the, what is it? The son, the spirit in the. What's the last one? Yeah. The Holy Ghost, the the son, father. Yeah. Which is like, you know, and it's like the Trinity. And then they argue and fight and kill over whether that's. Real or not, whether and, but it's just, that's so abstract in the, in details.

00:43:04:18 - 00:43:25:10
Unknown
Yeah. Versus in India where it's, you know about the concrete which allows you to have things like a better expression of love and eroticism and things like that. Oh yeah. To me as much healthier. Then, you know, I'm not a fan of Christian stuff, to be honest, but, but anyway, so to me, it's this I'm learning so much about.

00:43:25:16 - 00:43:59:20
Unknown
Well, yeah, I mean, I think, the idea of Dharma helps there because, so there is a difference between the rules and principles. Right. And there is a difference between fact and value. Yes. Right. Had this whole of Indian philosophy. Mahabharata is about a pursuit of values. Right. And you know the, the idea that principle is more important than the rules of society, you'll see that in most of the, you know, principles more important than the.

00:43:59:21 - 00:44:24:07
Unknown
Oh yeah. We got to uphold the principle. Sure. You're breaking rules many times. Yeah. And in fact, the principle being the more abstract guidance, abstract rule being a more concrete thou shalt not. Yes. Thou shalt not versus, you know, something along the lines of pursued justice and which might include killing. Yeah. So it's like you can't say thou shalt not kill that.

00:44:24:07 - 00:44:48:12
Unknown
That may be a commandment, but if you're pursuing justice, you might have to kill somebody. In that sense. Yes. And also that's the principle versus the the rule. Yeah. I mean, oh, man. For example. And the rules are elevated in Abrahamic traditions, too. The rules are elevated to the level of absolute value, absolute absolute. Thou shalt not worship any other God before me.

00:44:48:15 - 00:45:09:04
Unknown
Yes or no? Graven image, no symbols. Yeah, but, what you would see on what you might be saying that. But you will see symbols. You'll see. Oh, sure. Oh yeah. They're breaking it. And then. Yeah. So there's a whole joke about like Catholics of the, you know, the ingrained guilt. Oh, yeah. They're always guilty because you have to break rules to live.

00:45:09:05 - 00:45:30:08
Unknown
Yeah, well, you have to break all the rules to live and enjoy life and, and, and also, I mean, you should not have a visual image. What about the image of sound? Yeah. You know, other Abrahamic, Abrahamic tradition, even sound is a symbol. The word is a symbol. Yeah. So therefore you, if you have five senses, you are operating with the world through symbols.

00:45:30:10 - 00:45:56:02
Unknown
Yes. Yeah. And you need that, not you need. There's no way to do with you need. But you'll see like manifest in culture, like Muslim cultures won't allow you to draw Mohammed or other depictions of Allah because they are so limited to be this kind of evil manifestation of it. So they will kill you. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and it took a lot of progressive thinking in the West to start projecting God.

00:45:56:02 - 00:46:18:11
Unknown
Jesus. Like, there's a lot of great Christian, paintings. Yes. From like, you know, 1112, 13th century where they start developing because they finally and, you know, get into it's acceptable and more acceptable to actually depict Christ, which I think allows for more iconography and but it allows for the development of art, in a sense, to do that until you get to like the Pieta.

00:46:18:13 - 00:46:39:17
Unknown
Right? And like, what is that, the 1500s or something? I've. I've ever seen that, but no, I'm talking about, Michelangelo's. Oh, yeah. Michelangelo's okay. Yeah, yeah. That's beautiful. I think it's just one of those. The anyway. Yeah, but I mean, they would not have been able to do that. And and in fact, I guess one of a Delphi though, when she is being painted as prophesies, think about Jesus.

00:46:39:17 - 00:47:06:21
Unknown
Right. Something I mean, Michelangelo. Yeah. Like, that one, I don't know. Yeah. They have, the even the paintings had to be changed in order to, to build this narrative, to build the narrative that fits with what they had. Yeah. Yeah. And, and of course, I mean, I've heard about even the Romans, for that matter, now, the Roman culture, which was very much very Greek, but the different names Athena was Diana.

00:47:06:23 - 00:47:27:14
Unknown
Right. And, they just took everything that they could have much of a culture in that. Yes. Took it from the Greeks. Greeks. Yeah, yeah. Just changed into some. I think they had some, like, precursor gods. I mean, I think what they took from the Greeks were the stories. So they had certain names of the same type of, you know, you know, like I said, Diana and Athena or something.

00:47:27:16 - 00:47:52:00
Unknown
But then they didn't really have a story. Yeah. And and, Enid, the, king of the Romans happened to be one of the ones who actually, one of the, kings who was with or not disuse. Right. So that's the word. Oh, he was a Trojan. Trojan horse was a Trojan. Yeah. So he was a Trojan after the Trojan War, he's fleeing Troy to found Rome.

00:47:52:00 - 00:48:18:09
Unknown
To found. Right. So, yeah, he's defeated by the Greeks, and that's. But it's the story of the Aeneid. Is his traversing through, you know, Africa, and he goes to Carthage. It's a famous story of him and Dido. And then, you know, again, just like Arjuna and these other characters, it's conflict internally of his personal desires and goals and values versus his civic duty to found Rome and and then.

00:48:18:09 - 00:48:47:00
Unknown
Yeah, but then he goes out and goes, but yeah, he's he's Trojan. But the reason and, Virgil does this, I think, because he's actually pre-scripted to do this in a sense, yes. By Augustus Augustus tells him to do this and wants him to write the national epic, which is an interesting cultural progression thing. We could talk about it some or, you know, it's interesting I have talked about on the show before, but but the point is that he's pulling from this Greek story that is the inspiration for all of them.

00:48:47:02 - 00:49:05:05
Unknown
They all love Homer. He's the God of everything. And even though he's a human and then they so they want to put it in that story. They structure it similarly, but they do it in a very Roman, you know, more centralized way, basically. And then they make it all about piazzas, which is Roman for duty at father.

00:49:05:07 - 00:49:31:04
Unknown
And that's like a certain kind of duty. That's a structure of that's a core motivating factor for him. That's awesome. But yeah. Anyway, so he's but again, another example of just exploring the other cultures. Yes, yes. And well, the similarities when I was reading these kind of stories and it was really surprising and astounding for me too, because I'm these are separated by thousands of miles.

00:49:31:06 - 00:49:58:15
Unknown
But, but the kind of stories that they are telling. And, when I studied the language, the language similarities and in fact, there are still many European languages, you know, for that matter, Lithuanian language is very close to Sanskrit. Really? Yeah. Okay. So I will go ahead here and, also English for that matter. Right. You we say, for mother matter in Sanskrit.

00:49:58:17 - 00:50:20:22
Unknown
Matter in Latin matter. Yeah. And then mother. Yeah. Peter. Better father. Father. Yeah. And that's what comes from us. Okay, I see, I see comes to the same thing as Peter. Yeah. So it's like loyalty to your father or duty to your father. And, as Jews. Peter. Nice in in Sanskrit, it's just Peter.

00:50:21:00 - 00:50:53:06
Unknown
Just because. Yo yo yo yo yo yo with the Joe means yo means, Paradise. Father or the Paradise? Yeah. Peter means yeah. And then. And this is what if you split Jupiter? It's the Peter Jupiter doc. But dear, Jupiter is. Oh, cupy tur Jupiter Zoo becomes Jew. Yeah, man. That's interesting. Yeah, yeah, I can say me.

00:50:53:06 - 00:51:17:23
Unknown
Yeah. There's so many different. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, there's so there's obviously some similarities in and and then we have swatter for sister. So. Yeah. Sister. Yeah. Brother for brother. So there is a lot of similarities you know. And yet when you, you know, visit or you there's, it seems like it's very different.

00:51:18:02 - 00:51:49:03
Unknown
Yeah. Like that's, that's what's interesting to me is just that there's such core similarities. But you would approach it very different, very differently. And I, my assumption is part of that is because of how Christianity influenced the West, which is one reason why there should be there would be so differences. So like if Christianity never existed in the West, or if there was Greece, as it was like if a Greek from the, you know, third century BC were to travel to India.

00:51:49:06 - 00:52:09:04
Unknown
Yeah. They did that. Well, yeah. Yeah. But I mean, like way later, like after Christianity. But so like, if you were to take, you know, even before Christianity. Greeks. Yeah. Came to India. Yeah. Yeah. There's lots of traveling into, well, I mean, Alexander conquered some of India, right. A part of that part. Yeah. And he couldn't come inside, though.

00:52:09:04 - 00:52:27:21
Unknown
He couldn't get all the way. Yeah, just a little too far for him. But he he still conquered some of it. So there's definitely like interplay in that sense. And I'm just saying like if you were to take, like if you do pluck out of history like an ancient Greek, I think he would find himself more at home in India to dead than you would in like, America today.

00:52:27:22 - 00:52:52:15
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Oh, just because now that he would, you know, there's a lot of America and the West that is actually Greek more than. But I think the Christian influences have really changed the structure and nature of the West in a way that makes it more alien to more alien, because where the Westerners could not, relate to their own ancestors.

00:52:52:17 - 00:53:13:10
Unknown
And this story. Yeah. Because it's like, especially if you're couched in Christian belief system. And I hear this all the time today. And I found that in, I guess Dante's. Sally. Where? Yeah. Where the Greek heroes and the Roman heroes, they're all in the in hell. Well, they're all in hell. Yeah, yeah. And part of that is because obviously it's very Christians.

00:53:13:10 - 00:53:52:03
Unknown
It's like 1300s, but, he admired the burning Inferno, right? Yeah, but he had he still admired that. Well, Virgil's the guide. Yes. So his guide through hell and purgatory is Virgil. And then when he makes it to, Paradise a Aparicio, it's Beatrice. So it's his love. And, I mean, it's a whole nother whole other story, but, because it's, again, an example of the way that Christianity has changed the nature of things like the concept of love, where, you know, again, and Dante and you see this in Petrarch, you see a little bit, you know, Shakespeare starts improving on it.

00:53:52:03 - 00:54:20:12
Unknown
I think he improves the story. But there's a very disconnected, not sexual, not erotic. It's it's about these high ideals, but not the concrete's like, not the specifics. So there's a lot of Western, traditions of love, like Dante, where it's like this really abstract, motivating force that you just you're for and you, you want to achieve, but you're not ever really going to achieve it.

00:54:20:12 - 00:54:45:13
Unknown
And that's to me, that's like the same kind of relationship they have with God in a sense where it's like there's not, you know, he's just this kind of abstraction that's really vague. There's not a lot of definition to who he is or what he's about. Jesus has a little more definition, of course, but, but, you know, so this, that, that I think is really part of it versus in India, it seems like again, there's are in the Indian like in Hinduism and things like that.

00:54:45:13 - 00:55:15:21
Unknown
It seems like there's just so much more of the appreciation of the specific, the concrete, the definite. Yeah. And that's a big difference. And that's how the Greeks were. And the Romans are the same way in a lot of ways. But they started, you know, I think paving the way for the Christians who are going to pull out that and just kind of take it away and make it all about this broad, abstract idea of one God, one because that one God is just by nature, way more, way less definite.

00:55:15:23 - 00:55:39:05
Unknown
Because if you have Zeus, you have Zeus is thunder. He's got specific characteristics he's talked about in the Homer. He's jealous. A lot of times it comes down on golden showers or whatever. You know, there's Hera, who's really jealous and and they all have very specific characteristics. And as you go through the epics, you'll notice that they, you know, even a, the Aeneid, they start to coalesce with their characteristics, become less defined.

00:55:39:07 - 00:56:03:08
Unknown
And then they just disappear in Christianity and it's just like this one voice from up high and that's there. Yeah. And you know again India I think has more of that Greek is and it has more of a definite yeah to it. Which to me is really interesting. Yes. And I think because I the is whatever the abstract principle is, you know, they have to be shown in the form of stories and characters.

00:56:03:08 - 00:56:28:14
Unknown
That has to be a living example. Yeah. Exactly. For India. Yeah. So and the Greeks too, and the Greeks were all that's why like poetry and playwriting, was so big. And yes, it's very big. Yeah. I mean, and when it comes to literature, let me guess what there are about 35 million manuscripts in Sanskrit, on in Sanskrit and in the languages.

00:56:28:16 - 00:56:58:03
Unknown
But if you put all Greek and, oh, Latin, manuscripts together, it's around 300,000. What that we have left. I don't know what we have, like under the right. Right. And, and, many of them happened to be religious in nature. Sure. Right. So under, the, the, the, Greek Mythology Center, and, epics, they are in library today and, unexplored.

00:56:58:07 - 00:57:13:17
Unknown
Yeah. That is sad. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to solve. I'm. Yes, I'm trying to get more people to read the great Five epics of the West. And maybe, you know, I might even add, the sixth of Mahabharata. Yeah. That's part of it. Probably an abridged. I don't think I want to do the ten volume set.

00:57:13:19 - 00:57:33:20
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, it's really, really big and yeah, it's ten volumes is one that I saw like ten big books. Yes. And that's I like big books. I'm fine with big books, but that's like on another level. Yeah. And they're all relatable and it's easier to switch from the Greek in the Latin, epics to Mahabharata.

00:57:33:22 - 00:57:55:15
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the back and forth. And you could relate, in fact, like what you're saying is, you can find the similarities in terms of culture, in terms of value system and all of that. And like you said, if you read the Greek, if you read the Greeks. Yes. Yes. I mean, once I it's easier for me, you know, coming from the background of Ramayana.

00:57:55:16 - 00:58:17:15
Unknown
Right. Another epic and then Mahabharata, it's easier for me to appreciate. Yeah. All of the Greek stories. And I've been watching for the same reason. Yeah. You know, read about them for that thing. And, when Priam comes and then tells, holds the hand of Achilles saying that I'm kissing the hand of the very person who killed my son, begging him to return his body.

00:58:17:17 - 00:58:42:15
Unknown
Yeah. To touch us. My heart. Yeah. That is what is what I find in Ramayana. In Mahabharata? Yeah. Those touching moments that are personal, they're powerful, they're dramatic, and they have deeper meaning. Different meanings. Yes. Yeah. There's definitely, So I have a line in the play. And again, I think a lot of this is going to be kind of lost, but you'll see it a little bit just because you're not getting the whole play.

00:58:42:17 - 00:59:10:22
Unknown
But I have a line. I always wonder why he had the same fate as you after discovery that Arjuna and Kunti. Arjuna. Kunti is Arjuna, his mother, and karmas. Oh, yeah. And I don't know his mother. It's not contains Kronos as well as, as well as that's of us. Yeah, as well as upon it. Yeah. So that's I'm saying, like there's this moment of discovery and identity and things like that that's really powerful about the that's what I'm saying.

00:59:10:22 - 00:59:36:01
Unknown
It's just trying to relate it to what you just said about Achilles and Priam, because part of what's happening with Achilles and Priam there, which is different but similar like they're doing, you know, accomplishing similar functions is like what? It's a kind of new form of empathy. Right? So, Priam is reminding Achilles that he has a father, right?

00:59:36:01 - 01:00:02:19
Unknown
And that your father has going to lose a son. And you should sympathize and pity me and let me have my son, because you need to think about your father, which is a whole new way of thinking about enemies. Correct? Right. It's like you don't think of enemies like that. But the Greeks really made, you know, and Homer really made alive this idea of sympathy that, like the the the other is not evil.

01:00:03:00 - 01:00:27:04
Unknown
Yeah. Which I think is actually, you know, misinterpreted in our literary discussions today, people think that the Greeks invented the idea of the other or something like that, but they actually invented more of the idea of like, empathy with animals. Yes. You know, the idea of the other being, you know, evil and bad is part of nature, the discovery that they're also human or can be like you.

01:00:27:06 - 01:00:51:12
Unknown
That's a discovery. And I think with Arjuna and Karna and Kunti seeing that this guy that he hates, who's this competitor but is really there's something deeper going on and that they have a similarity and that they're two sides of the same coin almost. You know, and, you know, they're coming from the same people. One just happened to be born into this other world.

01:00:51:16 - 01:01:14:11
Unknown
I think that's part of that discovery of what Arjuna has. I don't know if what it the at least in our story. So I don't I haven't read the whole Mahabharata, so I don't know how much that's in there. Yeah. And, I mean, here in Mahabharata, the most interesting thing that you would find is, Bhishma, who happens to be a devotee of Krishna fighting on the enemy side.

01:01:14:17 - 01:01:36:06
Unknown
Yeah. Fighting him. And in spite of fighting Krishna, he gets liberation. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. No it's. Yeah. And it's and it's part of it where I think again the focus on conflict is really important because it's two families. It's one family essentially. And it's like the core was the Pandavas are related and they're fighting.

01:01:36:06 - 01:01:54:07
Unknown
But it's also like you're saying, choosing sides. So you have like Drona who comes and teaches the Pandavas and the core of us, who are both raised by Bhishma. So this was raising narrated. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As kids they're they're kind of like fighting in this. I know the Mahabharata. There's all these stories about, like trying to drown Bhima.

01:01:54:11 - 01:02:16:00
Unknown
Yes. That's like. Oh yeah. You know, like there's all these stories, but. But essentially they're all together, you know, working together, you know, living and fighting and playing together. And then Drona comes in when they're kind of young adults and he trained, he's like this master training area, and he trains them. And then the conflict occurs. And now different people are choosing different sides.

01:02:16:00 - 01:02:37:13
Unknown
And they have Bhishma on the sides of the core of us, which you wouldn't expect, I think. Right. You have Drona on the side of the core of us. And so then you have interesting things where you destroy the Pandavas. Brother goes and asks, you know. Can I fight? Yeah. And so there's like this, these respect things happening, which you don't get that as much and well, that's not true.

01:02:37:13 - 01:03:01:09
Unknown
You get a little bit of that in the Iliad. Actually, there's a, a really interesting moment between, Glaucus and some other, a Trojan. I'm forgetting who it is, but they come up together and you see this a lot in I think Middle East and culture is where they start relating their lineage. Because they're trying to find like is there a moment of connection.

01:03:01:10 - 01:03:13:12
Unknown
Yeah. And you see that to this day in the Middle East like a lot of people on the Middle East, they will stand there and they'll, and when they meet each other they'll talk about their parents, their grandpas, their back and say, oh yeah, 14 generations back. We were right. And that's not something we do in the West.

01:03:13:13 - 01:03:33:19
Unknown
It's very, you know, strange to us, but they did that in the Iliad. And there's this moment with Glaucus and some other where it's like, oh, you my, my father, grandfather gave Zenia to your, you know. So, I guess he was a it was a guest or a host of, you know, your grandfather. So we have a connection.

01:03:33:19 - 01:03:56:08
Unknown
So I'm not going to fight you or out of respect or something like that. And so you see that in both epics, the yes parts, the Iliad and, and it's a human conflict where at some, many times loyalty is preferred over honesty. And you'll see that in Mahabharata. Yeah. Where loyalty is of paramount importance for Karna. But Bhishma.

01:03:56:10 - 01:04:17:04
Unknown
Yeah. And even Drona for the loyalty is big to all of us. Big? Yeah. We all want loyalty in our lives. And that's how we should. Yeah. And they elevate loyalty. Yeah. To the fact. Oh, this is the the the Supreme Dharma. The Supreme dharma. That was loyalty. Oh, that ended now. Yeah. It was like, that's a that's like one of the core.

01:04:17:07 - 01:04:38:09
Unknown
Yeah. They were values in the martial arts. Anything. Yeah. On the rocks. And they were wrong. So Krishna says that. So when you do that, when you, when you made loyalty over honesty as the, the primal dharma. Right. Oh that's wrong. That is wrong is the honesty is of of paramount. Yeah. It's a greater importance. But they elevated loyalty.

01:04:38:09 - 01:05:04:21
Unknown
Loyalty. Yeah. Just okay. Yeah. So you see that and their, reason for neutrality when, Draupadi is being, Or who's there? The the beast, Drona and Bhishma and and the thrust and control of the is being dragged. Yeah. By the by the shaman I will drink. Your blood is on my lines. And I swear Bhishma doesn't speak.

01:05:04:23 - 01:05:26:13
Unknown
Now you know. Well, they ask him in our play. Yeah. That's like, what should we like? Somebody says because there's a conflict there when drop what he says. And one thing I like about dropping, I have to say is that she can. Yeah, she speaks up for herself. She's not like a passive woman. She's. Yeah, she's standing up, but she's trying to fight for herself in a, you know, a patriarchal society.

01:05:26:13 - 01:05:51:09
Unknown
But but anyway, so so she's like, well, how could you, Destra have gambled me if he gambled himself first? Yeah, like doesn't. And then, you know, I think Madri and, and Bhishma kind of say. No, no, unfortunately, you know, you're not. Mother is dead, right? By the time it's Bhishma and, and, you know, you had Madri is dead.

01:05:51:10 - 01:06:14:01
Unknown
Madri is the second wife of Pandu. She's dead. Gandhari. Ganpati. Oh, yeah. Gandhari. Yes. I'm still trying to get these straight. Yeah, yeah. So Gondya is the one who. Who puts a blindfold on her head over her eyes because her husband, the king Rostro, is blind, born blind. And then they argue that O wife's rights are actually tied to husbands, right?

01:06:14:01 - 01:06:31:14
Unknown
Yeah. So she has no right. Yeah, yeah. So. But but you know, but yeah, that's typical of an ancient epic. But the thing that's interesting is her standing up for herself. Yes she does. Yes. Yeah. And in fact, she was the one who wants the war. That's what I know. Almost everybody gave up. Well, that's what I said.

01:06:31:16 - 01:06:59:23
Unknown
Like, I really said this, and a couple people really pushed back, who love the epic. That seems very complicated. Or they're, you know, conflicted or whatever is I think that, you know, she really is a kind of Helen figure in the sense of centralized person to the origin of the war. She's not the fundamental cause. She's not the cause is are the two people, two people still, you know, fighting over this, you know, this conflict.

01:07:00:02 - 01:07:19:15
Unknown
But she is the origin. Like, without her, there's no conflict. Yes. Right. Like there's no war between them if they don't take property or properties. Isn't married to the the five brothers at all and they're not. Yes. And in fact, she is married to to five brothers because, Kunti did not want the conflict among brothers to.

01:07:19:17 - 01:07:41:23
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's, I mean, that's one thing about epics and poetry is you'll see this kind of repetition. Yes. To kind of show you the idea and different formats. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's really interesting. And, yeah, Draupadi is probably the most interesting character. And, yeah, I really think of her as, like a strong female character, actually very strong.

01:07:42:03 - 01:08:07:02
Unknown
Very strong. Good in anything. Yeah. You you I think you try to, draw parallels to Medea. Right? That was interesting because, Yeah. Medea is all about, vengeance to the point that she has to murder her own children. Yeah, Draupadi actually loses her children. All five of them. Yeah. She doesn't in the war, we actually doesn't murder, but she loses them.

01:08:07:04 - 01:08:25:09
Unknown
Yeah. And, the only person that actually sided with property throughout the story was Krishna. Nobody else. Not even her. I thought Bhima Bhima was. Oh, my Bhima fought for, I remember, I fight for her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Look what I like. I had a line like. Watch what I do now for you. And I eat this guy's guts.

01:08:25:09 - 01:08:46:03
Unknown
Yes. Who was her enemy? Who dragged her like that's my retribution. So it's like, I feel like in that moment, I'm the, you know, the Furies. Yes. In Greek mythology. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm like one of the Furies. Like. Like I'm. She. It's her. He he doesn't have inner conflict. Yeah. Hema does not have. Yeah. Bhima does.

01:08:46:05 - 01:09:06:14
Unknown
I don't see any inner conflict. I yeah, I don't I think that's why one of the reasons why and chose me for Bhima. I mean, besides my size, I think my acting abilities are limited. So with with VMA, I could just be, you know, basically, he's ready to fight at any moment. He's ready to jump into action. Yeah.

01:09:06:16 - 01:09:25:03
Unknown
There's a moment when it's like, I basically jump into, like a holy fire almost to fight it off. Right. And you could watch the show to see what I mean by that. But but there's like a like that's how Bheema, I think is right. He just like jumps right into it. Right? That it is very action oriented. And people many times people confuse that for impulsivity.

01:09:25:03 - 01:09:47:04
Unknown
But he had a very clear understanding of right and wrong. And who is evil, who is not. Yeah. So why? Why question the only person who would say that? I mean, I would burn your hands, to your dinner when he was wagering, Kingdom Brothers and also, Draupadi right beside the point. He says that actually does it.

01:09:47:04 - 01:10:08:06
Unknown
Really? Yeah. Yeah. I will burn your hands on your hands. Yeah. Because you don't like one thing is, the older brother is the one in charge. Yeah. And there's a deep respect for that very deep center in the sky where you have to always keep that in mind. He wasn't asking. Yes. Yeah. When you're watching the player reading it, you have to really keep in mind that it's because there's moments where it's like, why would they, like, not stop him?

01:10:08:06 - 01:10:31:22
Unknown
But it's like, well, he's using tried and he's like father in a sense. Yeah. He already he already did. I know, Raja. So yeah, the, ritual to be declared as a king. And he had to distiller, and he was the declared king of love in the press. Okay, so there is a deep respect for him, and there is definitely that social ranking.

01:10:31:22 - 01:10:51:23
Unknown
What he is like in the show. I don't know if this this comes across a little bit. There's some moments where this happens, but Yudhishthira is the wise one and is very wise. Wise, yes. When you do get a scene around a pool with a guard, a guard, Dharma, I think is a dharma who's talking that when they're at the pool drinking the water, they have to be forced?

01:10:51:23 - 01:11:09:13
Unknown
Oh, yeah. You did that? Yeah. You didn't realize the one. And. But who's the god or who's who's saying? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So because we don't say that in the play, it's not like Daksha speaks. It's just we have this voice that tells us what to do when we do it, right? Yeah. But you.

01:11:09:13 - 01:11:30:19
Unknown
This is the only one who has the wisdom to, like, listen to the voice and answer the voice and and there again, this is like this. There's so many summoners. That's like. That's Oedipus, you know, solving the riddle of the Sphinx. Oh, yeah. He's he's getting these challenges. And that's, you know, he's he's wise enough to kind of solve some of the challenges to, you know, overcome the kingdom.

01:11:30:19 - 01:12:00:15
Unknown
And, yeah. So I just the similar is so many different places, like, you know, now, the difference is one big difference is the there aren't, as far as I know, in Greek mythology, they're at that point they've really lost the animal as God type thing. And so you don't get like a, elephant Ganesh type character with us now who has a backstory, but you don't get a character in Greek mythology where there's like, you know, an an elephant's head or some something like that.

01:12:00:15 - 01:12:33:22
Unknown
That's one difference between the gods. But I think the relationship between the gods is various and and mortal man is similar in Greek mythology and in, and in Mahabharata and then other. They're very anthropomorphic. Yeah. Yeah. And both are very anthropomorphic. Now, I don't have enough of a sense of Mahabharata from the play to get us, because I have a real sense of the Greek and Roman gods in this, and what I mean by that is just the interactions they have with each other.

01:12:34:00 - 01:12:53:00
Unknown
And you see that in Egyptian gods story, the Egyptian gods are the, I think, some of the most. I think maybe in South America. And there's a lot of animal gods and yeah, that's very different. But I think the Greeks were one of the few, if not the only, that had like none of that. Like they had no, you know, nothing.

01:12:53:00 - 01:13:15:16
Unknown
Whereas like a animal had or nothing like that, like is all human. Which I think is an interesting difference between them in some. But, I forgot, as I say, but but, you know, it's the. What about Medusa? Wasn't she. She had like, once. She wasn't a god who's more like a witch. Witch? Oh, yeah. But she was like snake.

01:13:15:16 - 01:13:36:18
Unknown
She was a gorgon. So she had, like, the snake. That turned to stone. Here's what, like that of the snake. Yeah. So she had, like, snake. Snake here. Yeah. So, but she wasn't like, a god that they would worship. Yes. Right. There's, I mean, there may be some exceptions that I don't know about. That's not a prominent one, but not that I know.

01:13:36:18 - 01:13:59:15
Unknown
Like, they're all very human. Human faces. Yeah. And they're from very early on. 800. You know, Homer saying it's like they're not just human in looks. They have some who behave like. Like the interactions between the gods in the Iliad and the Odyssey is so much squabbling, so much fighting. Yeah. They're also not omniscient or omnipotent. Omnipotent.

01:13:59:15 - 01:14:22:03
Unknown
And I don't know if that's quite true, because it seems like when Krishna revealed himself as Vishnu, he there's this view of he's like everything. Yes. He's so he's an embodiment of this, the universal form, this universal form. You don't get that in the Greeks. Like, like my favorite example, I think it's an, I think it's in the Odyssey or maybe the Iliad.

01:14:22:03 - 01:14:44:02
Unknown
But I mean the idea that the gods actually behave like humans is very, very much central to epics. It's a approach to the epics. It's like, absolutely, because it's human centric. It's not God centric, yes, but I guess what I'm trying to get at is the like how the relationship is. And it's each epic is different. And that's what's interesting.

01:14:44:02 - 01:15:08:14
Unknown
So yeah, you're right that in all epics, God is central to it. This is one reason why epics start to die out after melt. But in 1600s, when you have modern science and you have the encroachment, in a sense that's how that's a religious people would think about it as like encroachment on their metaphysical world of science and, you know, like ordering the universe.

01:15:08:15 - 01:15:39:05
Unknown
Yeah. What's that? Ordered by gods. It's ordered by laws and physical laws that you can see. That kind of conflict doesn't happen here at all in the in the traditions. The reason being that even in the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna talks about three levels are stages of epistemology. One is the, the physical world, physical and, inference based on physical perception, which is called a deep meaning argument.

01:15:39:07 - 01:16:03:10
Unknown
I think both are towards, manifested world. That's what it means. The manifested word. Yeah. Manifested is like word come to life. Almost. Yeah, right. Manifested world you. When you word is the pulpit. I'm saying r d r w o r ld world. Okay. It's manifested world. Manifested world. Okay. And, so that's, the epistemology for that.

01:16:03:12 - 01:16:36:08
Unknown
And then he talks about a d deba meaning deity based, where it's the is the epistemology of belief, the realm of belief. Yeah. Right. And then he says, about these two is a dichotomy. The towards the self with a capital S. Yeah. Right. So that is what I'm going to be talking to you about. That's the crux of the, it's which is the center of the Mahabharata central about it.

01:16:36:14 - 01:17:08:21
Unknown
And so the scientific discoveries or whatever those pursuits are in the realm of the realm of the Buddha or in the epistemology of their manifested world. They expressed worry. So, yeah, I had this debate with Oza after after the podcast. So this year, I'm not 100% convinced yet because there's to me, like I put it into a framework of mystical mysticism versus, you know, reason, fact based in a sense.

01:17:08:21 - 01:17:29:22
Unknown
And like, so there's still to me, it sounds like there's a even if it's about the world, it sounds like it still seems to be a mystical approach to it. And the scientific revolution is really, an approach of the physical laws of nature, like it's and it's a discovery and understanding and a computation of the physical laws of nature.

01:17:30:00 - 01:17:56:12
Unknown
And that is, I think, very separate from the, the a kind of mystical approach to the laws of nature. So the laws, you know, do we have gravity because God said so, or do we have gravity because there's certain magnetic and, you know, forces of bodies to, you know, heavenly bodies or, astrological bodies coming together in such a way that brings, you know, smaller objects down to bigger objects or something.

01:17:56:12 - 01:18:17:05
Unknown
And there's actual measurements you can do and you can study that. And that's not there's a different process than what was the where the middle where you said that, I did they were a deity and they brought you, towards the divine. Towards the divine. Yeah. But that's what I mean. So it's like it's got that divine taste to it.

01:18:17:06 - 01:18:39:15
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, they are they are just nothing. Think of them as though the beliefs, design deities and, the sense of gratitude, will result in the action of worship. So, so that is in that level of epistemology. Yeah. So when, when but you're comparing that to the scientific revolution. No, I'm not, I'm, I'm. Yeah. I'm only about the scientific revolution.

01:18:39:15 - 01:19:04:11
Unknown
Happens to, happens to be in the manifested world. The, the world that is said. Yeah. Okay. So it's yeah, it's in the sensible world. But I'm just saying that beliefs are so when it's not shared reality. So tell me how you think there's separate hope from the scientific revolution from the same. I mean, science is about the pursuit of, and what I find the physical objects are operating in such and such a way.

01:19:04:14 - 01:19:34:08
Unknown
Yeah. And, we would understand the fundamental laws of how the nature works. Yeah. So this is what science is. Science is all about, right? And the water world of beliefs, I mean, it can be subjective. It can be relative, and it doesn't. It pursues the experience. It doesn't pursue the experiencer in the same equation. Yeah, right.

01:19:34:10 - 01:20:07:21
Unknown
Oh, so you you go after all, this world is sensible. How does it work? And what's the principle behind this? So to understand the forces of nature and what is fundamental to the forces of nature, this is how it's pursuing the scientific scientific inquiry is about the experience, the world. Right. And, here in the Bhagavad Gita, what it talks about is the is the world of the experiencer, for example.

01:20:08:00 - 01:20:55:14
Unknown
Sure. In all of science you start with, oh, there are three states of matter, you know, liquid, solid and gas. How come you did not consider the three states of consciousness wakeful wakefulness, dream and deep sleep? This is dead in the Indic. Yeah. Spiritual sciences. Right. Because that's part of the sensible world. Yeah. And yeah, it is not considered somehow the conscious ness is either dropped or it's pursued in, in some sense of, you know, in a partial sense, not what's in a in, in a sense that is more like it's all from the point of view of the wakeful world.

01:20:55:16 - 01:21:29:00
Unknown
The dreams are not pursued. For example, you know, you in scientific, in the scientific world. Well, I mean, one I think they do try to study it nowadays. There is some inquiry. Yes, but but it's all subject. This is what I'm trying to understand. What I always am interested in is the similarities in differentiation. Right. So everything you're saying I see in other cultures in ancient like they have different terms for it, but they studied wakefulness, consciousness, subconsciousness.

01:21:29:00 - 01:21:50:06
Unknown
They just didn't have the same term terms. And they studied dreams, events and dreams. Yeah. It's not part of the, you know, the, the religious philosophy for that matter. What is instructional? I think it's in Greek or something like it should be I that's hard. I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't know if it is going to be that systematic.

01:21:50:08 - 01:22:14:06
Unknown
Maybe not that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So that's what you're saying. You're saying that there is a systematic approach. It's a real systematic approach to wakefulness. Conscious? Yes. You know, and you're saying that if I'm understand what you're saying, you're saying there's something about the approach to that that's similar to the physical external world that both are studied and appreciated in.

01:22:14:06 - 01:22:42:18
Unknown
Yeah. Indian or in the Hinduism. Yes, it is appreciated and it's not. And tag on to stick to scientific pursuits. There never was a Galileo had to be persecuted. Right. So, Copernicus for that matter. So, that such a conflict is not there. But we're the scientists. They're scientists in the same way. Like, did they make the same discoveries, or.

01:22:42:20 - 01:23:08:00
Unknown
Because I know there might have been separation for a while. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I it is actually. So both in terms of philosophies and sciences. Yes. Yeah. There are many, starting from the days of audio, Apatow was an astronomer when he was, oh, well, I mean, between 82nd. Yeah. Probably 80 between third and fourth around that time.

01:23:08:00 - 01:23:34:22
Unknown
Okay. Actually, I guess here. Yeah. Three 408. It's ad. Yeah, yeah. And, and we have, a lot of, in the modern science, a lot of philosophies and philosophies, for example, there is, there are six philosophies that we study. So, one is, the very first thing is called the nerea, which, which is epistemology and logic.

01:23:35:00 - 01:24:02:00
Unknown
It is, there is both theistic and non atheistic versions of those, that's it's a philosophy. And then comes, Sankhya, which is followed in both, herbal medicines as well as Buddhism for that matter. Sankhya is the philosophy where, consciousness is passive, and then interaction with the material world, gives rise to manifested.

01:24:02:00 - 01:24:29:15
Unknown
Whoa. So that is Sankhya and that is there is something called, Vedanta where, you know, it's, it's the unifier where self is studied, the super self. And of course, there are differences between whether it is monism or qualified monism or dualism. What is the nature of reality? It's all metaphysics there. Yeah.

01:24:29:16 - 01:24:57:03
Unknown
And, and there is, another whole action is more important than passive knowledge. So therefore there is something called as a meme answer. It's all about rituals. And there are symbols or allegories. Are are also actions are allegories. That's going to be very interesting. Okay. It's another study. Hermeneutics, probably something similar to that.

01:24:57:05 - 01:25:29:17
Unknown
And then, you'll have or something like, some kind and then we have, we saw and all the contrast Tantra is completely into, what the what the it's all about nature. And there are specific rituals in order to, subjugate nature for your needs are used energies of the world for your needs and those kind of things.

01:25:29:22 - 01:25:52:16
Unknown
So there are various, philosophies and, each major philosophy has many branches. So, I mean, every culture is going to have a philosophy. I, I'm getting I was trying to get in something different, but I think we'll have to because we're running up on time. I think because philosophy, we can go on forever and ever. But I agree, like there's interesting philosophies to delve into.

01:25:52:16 - 01:26:18:16
Unknown
And yes, but again, every culture has those stories. Yeah. But one thing I'd like to end on is your, just a little quick, under understanding our exploration of your origins with, the Mahabharata for you personally. Did you watch it when you were young? Did you come to it later? Was it part of your growing up or what?

01:26:18:16 - 01:26:38:18
Unknown
Was it not when I was young, probably like 2 or 3 years old. And I've been listening to these stories. So, this is what it was. Where are you from? I am from, part of, from South India. Quite a city called Bengaluru. Okay. Well, now this these are our bedtime stories. Yeah. So you got them all the time.

01:26:38:19 - 01:27:02:08
Unknown
All the time? All the time. And, like, on the wall you had. And then, there are comic books. That's how I started out with comic books. Comic books and small storybooks. Yeah. You know, they were about either Ramayana or Mahabharata. Yeah. And of course, Bhima was very interesting. Yes. And he likes the strong man. Yeah. And, every example that we get on, how should you concentrate?

01:27:02:08 - 01:27:24:13
Unknown
You should concentrate like Arjuna. Arjuna? Oh, because he concentrates like on the dawn, day of the. That's a great example. Yeah. Of like. And then there's the counterexamples of I'm looking at, you know, there's a big archery moment and. Yes. And then Drona asks another five brothers and everybody else this they are seeing everything, the whole world.

01:27:24:14 - 01:27:41:06
Unknown
Exactly like the branches. My hand, my brothers. Not above. And I gotta get out of here. And then Arjuna is like. I see the bird. No, wait. I see the eye. Yes. And then shoot. And so this was an example. Yeah. Of great focus. Focus? Yeah. It's a great focus. And, he's his conviction to be the best archer in the world.

01:27:41:12 - 01:28:06:03
Unknown
Yeah. And how he pursues it. Therefore he's considered the hero about it. Yeah. And he is also very human because he's taught me. Right. He's torn between conflicts, and, so that's always. And there was always an example. And then, we, heard about Rama in Ramayana. He's like, you know, there's no difference between word and action for Rama.

01:28:06:05 - 01:28:28:02
Unknown
Okay? I know what his what he says is his word. Yeah, yeah. So these are the kind of stories that we heard growing up and then came in 93. The what I was talking about. Yeah, that that in the TV show, the TV show had, so we were in, yeah. Probably school. College. Yeah. At that time, it was very popular.

01:28:28:04 - 01:28:51:14
Unknown
Yeah. You know, elementary, middle schools and all that. Or we we watched the we watched this show. So he grew up with them and listening to these, these stories and and it's I don't know if you go to a temple and you see the deity of Krishna being worshiped. And then there is the story going on right next to now.

01:28:51:14 - 01:29:13:19
Unknown
And there will be a lot of, rituals and stuffs going on, but also there will be a part of it where you get the, you know, instead of a sermon, you there is a person who is actually telling the story. Yeah. So the thing is, in these stories, there was no like, no, there's not morality is not very explicit, but it has a point of view of morality.

01:29:13:21 - 01:29:35:18
Unknown
They wouldn't say you do that. Not this. You do that kind of thing. But there is a there's always, a viewpoint of morality, but it shows by examples. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think morality is, much more it's or wisdom is in India is much more appreciated through the form of stories. Yes, yes. Versus in the form of stories.

01:29:35:18 - 01:29:57:12
Unknown
It's still it's that way as well in the West. But I think it's competing and sometimes even more so with people with PhDs. Yeah, that's how I think. Like I call it PhD itis, in the West where it's like, those are the wise guys. They're the wise men, which, traditionally and throughout all cultures is not the case.

01:29:57:12 - 01:30:24:11
Unknown
The the person who has real depth into one very esoteric thing is not necessarily the wisest person. The person who could tell good stories, tell them well, and many of them to, you know, help guide you in multiple areas of life. That's a wise man. But the man who can, you know, dive deep into one subject all the way down, I think it's valuable, but I could think of that more as knowledge than wisdom.

01:30:24:13 - 01:30:57:05
Unknown
Yes, I differentiate, but I one thing I appreciate about the Indian culture is their their appreciation of wisdom, which I think comes from stories more than anything. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And also, I mean, not many people know that when the, when the Renaissance European Renaissance happened, including, Voltaire and other people, they, they recognized this thing and they were talking about hope, Pythagoras for that matter, studied in India.

01:30:57:07 - 01:31:23:22
Unknown
So this was acknowledged by Voltaire. Yeah. As you know. And yeah, I know Rousseau was a fan of Rousseau. Yeah, yeah. And, and also you talked about scientist, right. So scientists for that matter, a sort of a romantic. Yeah, yeah. So, if you see the the really even the religion is approached in the, in the form of, direct perception inferences.

01:31:23:22 - 01:31:50:06
Unknown
And then comes the expert knowledge. So it's called the protection of mana. And, Agama, the shadow. So the epistemology is very well defined. So you really do not have an equivalent of faith. Or axiomatic, know, working axiomatically. I think you have faith, but part of it, there is a place for learning on how you defining faith.

01:31:50:08 - 01:32:15:02
Unknown
Yes. Because I define faith is belief without reason. So. So believing no evidence or without evidence. Yeah. Same idea. But yeah. Like, that's that's how I think of it. Yes. So that's why this fits across all. Yeah. But it doesn't rule your life. It's not sir. Yeah. It's not raised to the level of, like what the Christians have to.

01:32:15:04 - 01:32:36:20
Unknown
Like I said, it's asceticism where it's, you know, I where it really affects. No, that's something different. But you just there's a place for it. Here's one thing. And we should end on this because we're, you know, it's a it's a good podcast. Be talking about a lot of good stuff. But, you know, we're doing Don Quixote for Literary Canon Club.

01:32:36:22 - 01:33:10:10
Unknown
And I really liked it when I read in my 20s. I'm loving at reading. And now in my late 30s and, partly because I'm just learning so much about the culture of Europe and Spain and 1600s and, you know, as it's coming out of this renaissance into this, you know, more flourishing culture all over the world. But one thing that is interesting about the Don Quixote is, exactly what you're talking about, where they're dealing with these, this issue of like, believing in something without having sufficient evidence.

01:33:10:10 - 01:33:34:20
Unknown
How do you do that? How do you do that properly? Can it go wrong? And I think with Don Quixote, it kind of goes wrong. It drives him mad. He he reads all these chivalry stories and it drives him mad in a sense. He starts acting them out, but people start questioning, what did this ever happen? Like, did this chivalric, hero actually cut off the heads of eight giants and one swing, like it said, is in the story.

01:33:34:22 - 01:34:01:07
Unknown
And because he takes it literally. Oh yeah. And so the parallel is clearly Christianity and and religion. Right. It's like how can we really believe what we're told 100% not. I think savant is his answer is the writer. I think his answer is yes. But he's still grappling with, you know, the perception of things and and the faith of having faith in them.

01:34:01:09 - 01:34:24:02
Unknown
So I think, you know, that's a, one way, you know, that is something I need to learn more about with Indian culture, about how they, experience faith, because that's how that's one way they're thinking about faith in that. Like, like they have an inquisition where it's like, you believe in this even if you don't believe in the yet to tell us.

01:34:24:02 - 01:34:42:02
Unknown
And you have to convince us that you believe in this religion or we're going to burn you alive, right? Like, like that kind of thing. And it's like, so do they really believe in it? How do you and then believe in what you believe in? An immaculate conception like so how do you how does that work? How do you believe in you know, so you're supposed to believe Jesus walked on water.

01:34:42:02 - 01:34:59:10
Unknown
But I've never seen a man lock on water. How am I supposed to believe that? So that's the faith thing. So I'm curious about the level of that. And, well, I mean, it's like, no. Yeah, there's a lot of mysticism. I mean, I yeah, when it comes to mysticism, yes, it does exist. Faith exists in India. But yeah, yeah, beliefs exist, all of that.

01:34:59:10 - 01:35:15:13
Unknown
And that's what I mean by faith. Yeah, yeah. It's that kind of belief without seeing it. Or are you seeing that it's even possible? Yes. Like there are things that are miraculous. I don't have to see to know that it's not miraculous. The things that are extraordinary. Then I'll have to see it to know that it happens. Because I.

01:35:15:15 - 01:35:38:13
Unknown
It's within the realm of things I've seen. Like like, you know, going to the moon. I don't have to. It's not an act of faith I don't need. I've seen rockets. I've seen different types of things. I know that there's, you know, there's I've seen pictures, but I've seen actual rockets go up so you can infer certain things that, well, it's possible to go to the moon and said, you know, they went to the moon, right.

01:35:38:15 - 01:35:56:11
Unknown
I don't need to have actually been on the moon and watched them walk in order to believe it, which I think a lot of people. This is an interesting crisis of belief and meaning that we have today. I'm like, you know, did they just make it all up? Is the earth flat? And people are literally questioning really basic things?

01:35:56:13 - 01:36:21:04
Unknown
Yeah. Because they don't literally see it. And I think to me that's a conflict between inferring from facts and faith, which has no inference to jump off of. Yeah. Like you've never seen somebody walk on water or an immaculate, you know, a virgin giving birth, like that's something had to happen, you know, to have the birth happen.

01:36:21:06 - 01:36:42:10
Unknown
Like, yes. And, man, I know it. There is, it the faith has a certain place, where know whether or not you want people to have faith. People will have it. Anyway. You know, it's the biggest danger in it. There's danger in it. And, because someone could hijack that faith and convince you of something.

01:36:42:10 - 01:37:03:21
Unknown
Because if you don't have a basis of facts and inference as far as yes, you then can. Anybody could say anything and you can get swept. True. So very true to me. That's the danger of that stuff. And so but I think, epistemology that is, if it is taught in a systematic way, yeah. People would know how to think about it.

01:37:03:23 - 01:37:32:23
Unknown
Oh, for sure. Yeah, that's a whole other conversation. And I talk about that on the show. A lot of like, good education. Yes. Which to me still includes and will end here, but still includes the reading of the Mahabharata, because it gives you an understanding of these different cultures so that you have a like, almost like a menu of all these cultures that you can look at and that it's almost like climbing up a mountain to, to look down at, not down in the negative sense, a pejorative sample just mean.

01:37:33:01 - 01:38:01:12
Unknown
And a 50,000ft view of all the cultures. Yes, including your own, because we often get trapped in our own cultural viewpoints and thoughts and worldviews. And to me, wisdom and good living is the ability to see out into the world and look into the future in a sense, and not literally, but and I think you need that that systematic education of multiple cultures, multiple cultures, and, I think, epics are the best way to because it's entertaining.

01:38:01:17 - 01:38:28:01
Unknown
Yeah. It's entertaining. Yeah. And yeah. And, they're not about do's and don'ts, but they're never prescriptive. Yeah, but they're descriptive, but it's there for you to find it out. Absolutely. Yeah. All right, Trini, thank you. Thanks for comment. This is fun. Oh, it's more interesting conversations about Mahabharat I appreciate it. It's been wonderful. Wonderful talking to you.

01:38:28:04 - 01:38:39:04
Unknown
I always wanted to talk to you. Yeah. And I'm glad I got this opportunity. Yeah. Me too. This is going. Absolutely. Yeah. You're welcome back anytime. Sure. I have a different conversation about something. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah,